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Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
(July 22, 2014 at 3:31 pm)SteveII Wrote: Beauty is a good analogy because objective beauty does exist and our perception of it certainly can't be explained by evolution.

I'm going to do you a huge favor and ignore the repeated fiat assertion and the argument from ignorance you just committed (but seriously, stop doing that. As Bad Wolf said, you need to provide evidence when you say things like this) and just remind you that I gave you an example of how our evolution has influenced our concept of beauty in the post you are responding to. The things we find ugly in organisms (I hope you can see how this is too large a topic to exhaustively cover in one post) like bared teeth, asymmetry, sharp edges and so on, are all things that spelled death for us in our evolutionary past. Even in our concept of beauty in humans outright aggression- which is signified through a lot of the same imagery- isn't considered beautiful, while a more natural, placid or happy expression is. Things that we find cute, like big eyes and so on, are traits that our infants have; that pleasure response is due to the visual similarities there.

This isn't hard to see, and can in fact be studied. The fact that you think it "can't be explained" isn't an issue. It can be, you just aren't aware of that. But you are now, so... Thinking

Quote: We perceive a sunset or a mountain vista as beautiful. We perceive some music as beautiful. If you are suggesting the beauty in a persons face is somehow programmed by evolution, I think that is also wrong.

That's great. But what you think isn't relevant. What you can demonstrate is.

Quote:There is no evolutionary value in a pretty face.

What do you mean? A pretty face denotes health, youth and vitality, all things that are good to have in a breeding partner. That's recursive, by the way; our ideal for "a pretty face," comes from the fact that those traits we associate with beautiful features do denote health, and were thus selected for. See, our concept of beauty in humans evolved in tandem with the rest of our traits. It's pretty cool, if very complex and hard to explain comprehensively.

Quote: All that would count is that the opposite sex be young, fertile, and otherwise healthy.

... Which tends to show up in their appearance. Wink

We're a visual species, Steve. And we aren't the only ones, either; surely you've seen birds put on mating displays and whatnot?

Quote: It is absurd to think that 60 year old Kim Basinger is not more attractive then most 60 year old women--none of which are ready to bare children.

Do you think evolution is somehow aware of that? It's not a precision process, dude; the traits that make her beautiful persist, even beyond the age of viability for breeding. So what?

Quote:So, just as we have an aesthetic sense, we have a moral sense. By intuition, we know when a situation is right or wrong. There are baby studies that show that even infants and toddlers recognize right and wrong. http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/baby-lab-morals-ac360/

Yep, social instincts are an evolved trait. Those that are more instinctively able to cooperate within the human social structure get to breed more with time, as they're able to better interact with others. Conversely, those lacking those instincts breed less, for the same reason.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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Messages In This Thread
Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 7, 2014 at 9:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 9:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 7, 2014 at 10:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 7, 2014 at 10:24 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 9, 2014 at 1:35 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 11:23 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 11:46 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 12:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 7, 2014 at 8:05 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 10:56 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 8, 2014 at 12:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 9:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 11, 2014 at 3:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 7, 2014 at 10:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 12:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 12:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 8, 2014 at 12:44 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 7, 2014 at 11:54 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 7, 2014 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 7, 2014 at 12:46 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 1:12 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 1:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 3:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ignoramus - July 7, 2014 at 10:48 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 4:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 4:27 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 4:59 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 7, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 6:06 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Cato - July 8, 2014 at 10:12 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 10:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 12:40 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 10:20 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 10:40 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 8, 2014 at 11:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 9, 2014 at 12:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jackalope - July 9, 2014 at 5:48 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 10:33 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 11:01 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 12:29 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 8, 2014 at 12:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ShaMan - July 8, 2014 at 12:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 8, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 4:44 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 9, 2014 at 3:12 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ThomM - July 9, 2014 at 12:35 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Silver - July 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 7:49 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 10, 2014 at 8:38 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by smax - July 9, 2014 at 4:43 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 9, 2014 at 8:43 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 9, 2014 at 3:45 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 9, 2014 at 6:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 9, 2014 at 7:34 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 10, 2014 at 7:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 10:01 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 10, 2014 at 7:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 10, 2014 at 11:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Welsh cake - July 10, 2014 at 11:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 4:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Crossless1 - July 10, 2014 at 4:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ShaMan - July 10, 2014 at 7:17 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 11, 2014 at 5:56 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 11, 2014 at 4:26 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 11, 2014 at 10:41 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 11, 2014 at 11:25 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 11, 2014 at 11:46 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 12, 2014 at 1:56 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 2:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 17, 2014 at 12:56 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 17, 2014 at 10:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Crossless1 - July 17, 2014 at 10:59 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 17, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 17, 2014 at 11:13 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 21, 2014 at 7:21 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ryantology - July 21, 2014 at 9:00 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 22, 2014 at 1:02 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 14, 2014 at 6:17 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 15, 2014 at 12:50 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 12:46 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 1:11 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 11:04 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 13, 2014 at 12:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 13, 2014 at 12:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 13, 2014 at 12:49 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 13, 2014 at 1:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 12, 2014 at 5:36 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 12, 2014 at 6:09 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 12, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 10:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 13, 2014 at 2:29 pm
RE: Why - by alexwenzel - July 13, 2014 at 10:12 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 14, 2014 at 12:15 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 14, 2014 at 12:32 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 12, 2014 at 2:45 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Zidneya - July 12, 2014 at 3:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:54 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LastPoet - July 12, 2014 at 4:25 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by CindysRain - July 12, 2014 at 5:00 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 12, 2014 at 6:30 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 12, 2014 at 6:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 12, 2014 at 10:39 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 13, 2014 at 1:40 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 14, 2014 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 15, 2014 at 10:57 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 15, 2014 at 11:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 16, 2014 at 12:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 16, 2014 at 1:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 16, 2014 at 5:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 16, 2014 at 5:48 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 16, 2014 at 6:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 16, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 16, 2014 at 9:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 16, 2014 at 8:49 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 16, 2014 at 10:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ryantology - July 17, 2014 at 4:24 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 14, 2014 at 12:24 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 16, 2014 at 12:45 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 16, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 21, 2014 at 10:44 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 17, 2014 at 4:54 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 17, 2014 at 11:22 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 21, 2014 at 3:35 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 21, 2014 at 4:27 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 21, 2014 at 5:02 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 9:44 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 22, 2014 at 10:42 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 22, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 1:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 22, 2014 at 1:29 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 22, 2014 at 3:51 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 23, 2014 at 12:42 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 22, 2014 at 2:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 22, 2014 at 11:02 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 12:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 3:48 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 6:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 22, 2014 at 6:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ignoramus - July 21, 2014 at 9:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 21, 2014 at 10:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 22, 2014 at 1:43 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 22, 2014 at 3:40 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 22, 2014 at 6:13 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 6:22 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 23, 2014 at 1:33 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 8:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 23, 2014 at 9:09 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 9:23 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 23, 2014 at 10:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 1:00 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Heywood - July 23, 2014 at 10:25 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 10:31 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Heywood - July 23, 2014 at 10:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 11:28 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Heywood - July 23, 2014 at 11:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 12:06 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 12:10 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 12:27 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 10:25 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 23, 2014 at 10:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 11:06 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 23, 2014 at 11:10 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 11:32 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 23, 2014 at 12:36 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 2:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 23, 2014 at 2:20 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 2:33 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 23, 2014 at 2:22 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 5:18 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 2:51 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 24, 2014 at 8:30 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 24, 2014 at 9:01 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 24, 2014 at 9:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 24, 2014 at 10:09 am

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