RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
December 1, 2014 at 12:23 pm
(This post was last modified: December 1, 2014 at 1:13 pm by Heywood.)
(November 30, 2014 at 6:06 pm)rasetsu Wrote:(November 30, 2014 at 5:48 pm)Heywood Wrote: You will have to try harder.You'd have to try awfully hard to be more condescending. And no, I don't have to try harder. The chameleon example stands. Their subrealities aren't the result of design.
First, I want to apologize if I offended you with the "you'll have to try harder" comment. Was it condescending? Yes...but it was just trash talk. If I had to name the brightest poster on any forum on which I participate or have participated, you'd be near the top of the short list.
I don't think a chameleon qualifies as a sub reality....but lets set that aside for now. For a chameleon to do something like this:
![[Image: flounderrd1.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img265.imageshack.us%2Fimg265%2F516%2Fflounderrd1.jpg)
Requires perception, retention of knowledge and information, planning, and problem solving. It requires a minimum amount of intelligence. Can you give an example of a chameleon which doesn't have a nervous system or brain?
(November 30, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: No, but your premise E and D are not in fact true - at least at the quantum level - unless you're able to demonstrate the cause of virtual particles coming into existence, or the cause of an individual atom's decay. AFAIK, those things to not have demonstrated causes (which is not quite the same as saying they are causeless, but it does negate your premises E and D below).
Quote:Premise E: We always observe effects having causes.
Premise D: We never observe effects not having causes.
Suppose we created a fine grained computer simulation of our world complete with intelligent conscious people and radio active decay. Scientist in that simulated world would discover apparently random radio active decay and Bell's theorem. Bell's theorem would tell them "No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics". Many scientist would conclude that on the quantum level....inherent randomness is just how their world works.
You however, are outside their world and would know that a random number generator determines if an atom in their world decays or remains stable. You would know that everything that ever happens in that simulated world....including atomic decay....has a cause. You would know that causality always holds in their world even though it is possible for the simulants to observe events without local causes.
Back to our world. You are correct. When we make observations at the quantum level it appears some events have no local causes. But causality tells us they have causes none the less. The notion that our reality is just a sub-reality of a larger reality is easier for me to accept than the idea that causality doesn't always hold.