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Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
#1
Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
One of the cornerstones of modern apologetics in the fine-tuning argument which, to many theists, leads them to conclude our universe could only have been created by an Intelligent Designer <cough>God</cough>. The argument asserts that if you adjust any of the numerous physical properties, from the mass of subatomic properties to the expansion rate of the universe (and many attributes in between), our universe would be incapable of sustaining life – especially intelligent life (namely humans… give or take). Theists often quote well known scientists who acknowledge the precise parameters our universe seems to conform to (usually neglecting to mention that these scientists don’t draw the same conclusions that they do), solidifying the theists’ conviction that our universe must have been intelligently designed.

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

Stated more simply: If God himself cannot create life under any other conditions, then he designed nothing, but only discovered the one way in which a life-sustaining universe could be constructed. If God could create sustainable life in any type of universe, then our universe is nothing special and thus not finely-tuned.
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#2
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
Good point. Another flaw in this stupid argument.

Surely God could just make things however he wanted, and then just "make it work" with his magic. That seems to be the answer to every other question put to theists, so I don't know why this is different and suddenly God managed to narrowly avoid total failure.

And of course, we've no reason to believe these constants could have been anything else in the first place.

Sometimes God is all powerful, sometimes he's finding solutions to problems that apparently popped out of nowhere.
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#3
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
(March 29, 2016 at 10:31 am)robvalue Wrote: Good point. Another flaw in this stupid argument.

Surely God could just make things however he wanted, and then just "make it work" with his magic. That seems to be the answer to every other question put to theists, so I don't know why this is different and suddenly God managed to narrowly avoid total failure.

And of course, we've no reason to believe these constants could have been anything else in the first place.

Sometimes God is all powerful, sometimes he's finding solutions to problems that apparently popped out of nowhere.

I agree God's magic is often suspect, inconsistent, and unimpressive. (Though I would pay to see him part an ocean! Maybe he could work through Penn and Teller... now that would be ironic!)
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#4
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
(March 29, 2016 at 10:08 am)Time Traveler Wrote: One of the cornerstones of modern apologetics in the fine-tuning argument which, to many theists, leads them to conclude our universe could only have been created by an Intelligent Designer <cough>God</cough>. The argument asserts that if you adjust any of the numerous physical properties, from the mass of subatomic properties to the expansion rate of the universe (and many attributes in between), our universe would be incapable of sustaining life – especially intelligent life (namely humans… give or take). Theists often quote well known scientists who acknowledge the precise parameters our universe seems to conform to (usually neglecting to mention that these scientists don’t draw the same conclusions that they do), solidifying the theists’ conviction that our universe must have been intelligently designed.

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

Stated more simply: If God himself cannot create life under any other conditions, then he designed nothing, but only discovered the one way in which a life-sustaining universe could be constructed. If God could create sustainable life in any type of universe, then our universe is nothing special and thus not finely-tuned.

As an engineer, I find these arguments pretty funny!
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#5
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
(March 29, 2016 at 10:08 am)Time Traveler Wrote: However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

ROFLOL
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#6
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
So, a laughing emoji is the best you can come up with?

And you wonder why atheists don't take theists seriously.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
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#7
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
It's kind of the intelligent design version of Euthyphro's dilemma Smile
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#8
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
Here's another dillema:

Is God totally shit at design, or are his followers very easily impressed and he thought "why try harder"?
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#9
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
(March 29, 2016 at 10:08 am)Time Traveler Wrote: One of the cornerstones of modern apologetics in the fine-tuning argument which, to many theists, leads them to conclude our universe could only have been created by an Intelligent Designer <cough>God</cough>. The argument asserts that if you adjust any of the numerous physical properties, from the mass of subatomic properties to the expansion rate of the universe (and many attributes in between), our universe would be incapable of sustaining life – especially intelligent life (namely humans… give or take). Theists often quote well known scientists who acknowledge the precise parameters our universe seems to conform to (usually neglecting to mention that these scientists don’t draw the same conclusions that they do), solidifying the theists’ conviction that our universe must have been intelligently designed.

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

Stated more simply: If God himself cannot create life under any other conditions, then he designed nothing, but only discovered the one way in which a life-sustaining universe could be constructed. If God could create sustainable life in any type of universe, then our universe is nothing special and thus not finely-tuned.

I don't know. This argument seems like a lot of sophistry. And since I've never heard an ID advocate make some of these presumptions, I have to call this argument a straw man.
You're not an ugly person; you're a beautiful monkey.

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#10
RE: Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.
(March 29, 2016 at 11:43 am)The Atheist Wrote:
(March 29, 2016 at 10:08 am)Time Traveler Wrote: One of the cornerstones of modern apologetics in the fine-tuning argument which, to many theists, leads them to conclude our universe could only have been created by an Intelligent Designer <cough>God</cough>. The argument asserts that if you adjust any of the numerous physical properties, from the mass of subatomic properties to the expansion rate of the universe (and many attributes in between), our universe would be incapable of sustaining life – especially intelligent life (namely humans… give or take). Theists often quote well known scientists who acknowledge the precise parameters our universe seems to conform to (usually neglecting to mention that these scientists don’t draw the same conclusions that they do), solidifying the theists’ conviction that our universe must have been intelligently designed.

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

Stated more simply: If God himself cannot create life under any other conditions, then he designed nothing, but only discovered the one way in which a life-sustaining universe could be constructed. If God could create sustainable life in any type of universe, then our universe is nothing special and thus not finely-tuned.

I don't know. This argument seems like a lot of sophistry. And since I've never heard an ID advocate make some of these presumptions, I have to call this argument a straw man.

I would agree; about the sophistry, but I'm a little surprised if you have never heard the argument of fine tuning before from an I.D. advocate.   And while not very complete, for once this isn't a caricature of the actual arguments, so I wouldn't call it a straw man.
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