The End of the World

[Mister Agenda]

You seem to have a whole lot of detail on hell beyond what the Bible says, and a poor understanding of how people relate to their torturers.

Your correct, however there are things in scripture that point to what I have said, or something close to the same. Hell is described as a place of darkness, that could be translated in different ways though.
I have no problem with how people react to their tormentors ie. tortures as you call them. In what I stated those in hell are there own tormentors, and they have to react to themselves and that is how I see people reacting to themselves. You're trying to interpret what I said in a way to use it to your way of thinking, take it and argue it as it is, please.

So you've got your own personal idea of hell based on your guesses and interpretations, and present it as fact. That's not worth arguing with.

In what I shared God is not responsible for their suffering they are and they realize it. So who do they beg to for forgiveness, themselves, what good is that.

They beg for forgiveness from God. You just said they realize their situation, they know why they're there, how can they not know who to ask for forgiveness from? And if you permit someone to suffer when you could easily prevent it, you bear some of the responsibility for that suffering. You can agree it's just and not lift a finger, but you can't honestly take the position that you have nothing to do with it. It's like building a miserable prison, deciding who gets put in it, and saying the conditions there aren't your fault. That's bullshit.

Don't you think that the mental and physical stresses of hate, terror and horror as I described them would be worse than fire and brimstone.

Not even close. Being burned alive forever as is commonly depicted by fundamentalists is far worse than emotional pain. I wouldn't hesitate to choose that over physical torture. If you think you would choose otherwise, compare how long you can handle being terrified with how long you can handle holding your hand in a fire.

And if I'm only punished with the hate, terror, and horror I bring with me, I'm living with that fine now, perhaps because I'm just not carrying much of that kind of baggage. I'm an easily contented guy.

As I said in my earlier post God can't go against justice, the justice of an all knowing God.

And how did you come to be the prophet of what an all knowing God's justice will be?

What lurkers, I'm insure what you mean?

People who read without commenting, sometimes without even joining. Our 'through-traffic'. I take them as much more likely to be 'on the fence' than commentors.

Unable, yes. He want forsake His own word, He's true to what He says, they have an opportunity while they are alive, and that's how it is, like it or not.

And you're the arbiter of what God promised? A Universalist would disagree, with plenty of verses to back up what THEY think God promised: that the world would be saved through Christ, that all of the nations and families would be blessed by the descendants of Abraham, that God's anger has an end and his mercy does not.

With the Hindu's you could wind up a worm forever, fish bait, that's a bad deal in anyone's book, except for the fish that is.

One would have to be an awfully bad worm to be reincarnated as one over and over, for eternity. In reincarnation, though you may take a step back for every two steps forward, everyone eventually attains enlightenment, though it might take millions of incarnations.

It's God's creation and his right to do with it as He with his omniscience sees fit.

So God has no morality, he can do whatever he wants because might makes right, and he's the mightiest? If whatever God can possibly do is right by definition, then he is beyond morality and it makes no sense to say he's good or evil. Now you're making God out to be a Lovecraftian elder god, a vast intelligence moved by considerations far beyond our comprehension in which our individual fates are insignificant. Frankly that fits the facts a lot better than the claim that God loves us, so you may be on to something there.

I've explained to you so many times that unforgiven sin eternal, not finite, so terenal justice is only fair.

Claiming is not the same thing as explaining.

The reason you believe what you wrote is because those who reject God's truth see things that way, so yes God's helping me, that's why you hate what I say, Christ told His disciples that this would be the reaction of those who hate Him.

Hate's a strong word. Shaking my head in pity comes closer. Only someone who's compassion is hobbled could not see how despicable some of your claims are. I have a strong feeling that if there is a God, he's got more of a beef with you than most of the other people here, if so, I hope he's more merciful than you think, for your sake.

Not hardly, I know He exists and guess what, because I do gives you no excuse not to know, God will tell all that who reject Christ.

You think you know he exists. There's a Yoruban witch doctor somewhere just as sure that Chango exists. A Hindu within driving distance of you happy to tell you if you ask that she knows Ganesh is real. You don't have what they don't have: a good reason to think they're right.

A place with God forever, where there will be no more sorrow, sickness, hate and ect.

And the Bible says that three-year-olds go to heaven where? Have you considered writing your own Bible?

I don't want anyone to suffer for eternity and neither does God, that's why Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice for all mankind.

That would be nice. But you don't believe the sacrifice counts unless someone says the right words in their head. It's not for all mankind, just for Christians (and probably not most of them), right?

It's not our choice where they wind up, it is their's, we have no say in the matter.

Because God never listens to mortals? Because God never makes deals with mere humans? Because you don't care enough about the infinite suffering you envision to beg God to withold it or mitigate it? I think it's because you like the idea of people not of your tribe suffering forever. We're 'the other' and don't count as real people to you. At least that's more consistent with the way you've been acting than hollow claims that you 'care'.

People with unforgiven sin would cause trouble in heaven, why because they haven't changed.

Then God can freakin' forgive them! We're talking about people that die, find out what the true religion is, and ask for forgiveness. And God can't keep order in his own house, no matter what, apparently. He's already proven that by having an angel rebellion. The people that qualify for getting in under the scheme you claim are no angels, they're human beings, most of whom are no different after they ask forgiveness. If the kindest, warmest people on Earth who happened not to be Christians would cause trouble if allowed in heaven, how are self-righteous jackasses supposed to do better?

That would make heaven something other than what God promised.

I missed the part in the Bible where God promised heaven would be filled with smug jerks who gloat over the misery of their lessers, but that IS the version of heaven promised by witnesses like you.

You go to a movie everyone has recommend as an excellent movie, and you don't like it, you're not exactly happy with those who said it was good.

More like you go to a good movie, and there are some rowdy people there who spoil the movie for you, so the theater adopts a policy of kneecapping rowdy people at the door and cutting off their hands in addition to just not letting them in. Because the people who run the theater are both cruel and incapable of ensuring the enjoyment of the more decorous patrons any other way. We could say they're omnipotent and omniscient except when it comes to finding a way for someone to enjoy a movie when there are rowdy people around that doesn't involve a Texas Chainsaw Massacre-like scenario.

So, no the people who gave their lives to Christ would not get along with those who think they deserve something they did not commit to.

In other words, they won't be any better people when they're in heaven than they are on earth. Big shock.

It's serious. I can tell the difference and it's small of you to say I can't.

Well you couldn't tell why it's consistent to think someone bad getting into heaven because they asked God for forgiveness five minutes before they died and someone good not getting into heaven because they asked God for forgiveness five minutes after they died isn't very fair. Can you forgive me for not having a high opinon of your insight?

There's a difference Dahmer recognized his sin and was remorseful, he chose Christ as his savior and the Father granted him forgiveness through grace. If a man like Dahmer was, can see the truth and respond to it, then why do you find it so hard.

Despite Christianity now having Dahmer's shining example as an endorsement, I don't see how a man like that buying your pitch lends it any credibility. Frankly, who you can point as having been taken in is irrelevant to the truth. The Muslims are outpacing the Christians right now in convincing people of 'the truth' does that make their message truer than yours? Is the truth a convert contest? If it isn't, why bring up your converts? If you don't consider Mormons Christians, note that they're growing faster, too.

There is a difference Dahmer sought forgiveness because he recognized his sin. The Hindu thought she was good enough to get to heaven on her own, doesn't work that way, Christ makes us worthy of heaven.

The Hindu thought they were going to get reincarnated into a better life, or perhaps achieve ultimate enlightenment. Say it to yourself very slowly, so it sinks in; People...who...are...not...Christians...do...not...believe...the...same...things...I...do....

There is noway I or anyone could describe the awesomeness of heaven, but I can and do make it clear how one gets there.

Because some Middle Eastern tribesmen wrote it down millenia ago and everything in their book is true. I've heard that.

Sorry if you can't handle something made so simple, that even the simple minded can understand.

I can't handle something so ridiculous, that only the brainwashed could believe it.

Granted, however the story I've been told came from God, not a human, yes a human witnessed the story but, God confirmed it's truth and worth.

According to the story.

First of all we need to get something straight, all I can do is witness, it is God's job to save you, I have no power to do so, nor would I want that kind of power.

If you were in trouble, I'd wish for the power to save you. Just sayin'.

I don't see people that come here and see what's going on as lurkers, since you do I would think that would go against your credibility to call others as haters. I do not represent hate and despise it.

Hate is as hate does. If you're not full of hate, why do your posts drip with venom?

To the one who say, "if I were an anti-Christian," yet demonstrates it almost daily, has little credibility with anyone.

I know a lot of admirable Christians. I just wish you were one of them.

It's not my fault that others try to white wash God's plan and justice,

You apparenty have a real problem grasping that people can really believe differently than you do, to the point that you accuse them of 'whitewashing God's plan an justice' based solely on knowing thay don't tell people the same things you do.

I have no control over them, you see it's those who cause others to say I've nothing to lose by being God's enemy.

And it's you that makes God sound like someone of whom a good and brave person would want no part. It's not the UCC driving people away from Christianity, it's the fundamentalist Evangelicals. Your kids meet Buddhists and atheists and gay people and scientists in real life and find out that you lot have been lying your heads off about them. It's like you're working for Richard Dawkins.

Not true you make yourself an enemy of God and you will pay the price you ran up here in this life.

Because you've wasted your life if you get to heaven and find out they allow the plebes in as well. Or worse, that you're condemned as a false witness and thrown into the pit for driving people away from redemption with your arrogance, pride, and self-righteous atttude. If there's a just God and a heaven and a hell, I worry a bit about that for you, but I hope you get in anyway.

To bad you do not understand what the saying means but, maybe some day.

It means that a Christian should be innocent, meek, mild, understanding, kind, and compassionate. They should also be wise, pick their battles, set a good example, and know their audience.

Now here's the truth Jesus preached more about hell than most any other subject,

So he had a tendency to dwell on the negative like you? Are you sure you're not projecting?

He preached more about hell than heaven, seems He thought it would be a good place for humans to avoid, it's why He paid our price and gave us a choice to avoid it.

A fair number of people believe he paid the price, period.

Jesus said Christians would be hated because of Him, yet I readily accept that, but don't get me wrong it does hurt.

I've never met anyone who hated Christians because they act too much like Jesus.

You're right the modern church is at fault, it's gone soft.

You're like the party that loses an election and decides that what they need to do the next time is more of what they were doing the last time. Fundamentalists had an unbelievable serge the last 70 years in America. They gained power. They gained attention. And now that they've shown everyone what they really are, they're dwindling. And they're not just taking themselves down, they're dragging down the mainstream Christians because they've given Christians such a bad rap in America that the brand is becoming radioactive.

This nation was a much stronger Christian nation when Christians witnessed the real truth.

Before they changed the US motto and the US pledge of allegiance to to send the message to everyone that only Christians are real Americans?

Angry people such as yourself have intimidated Christians, but I'm not one easily intimidated.

A tiny nonChristian Bruce Banner is standing up to the Chrisitan Hulk, and the Hulk feels iniimidated because puny Banner knows he's nearly naked. Now that you can't have us burnt or hung, you've got nothing but whining that we're picking on you.

Lucifer,Eve and Adam fell to the sin of selfishness that brought on the sin of disobedience.

In the fairy tale that you think is true. It's got a talking snake and magic fruit, these are giveaways that a story is either entertainment or metaphor. And a beautiful metaphor it is: we desire to do good, but we're tempted to do bad, a constant struggle within ourselves that the story illustrates perfectly, but the literalist cheapens it to an Aesop's fable taken seriously.

Most not all atheist are the champions of ranting here, give yourself some credit.

Why should we not rant? There is no injunction on us to be as harmless as doves. No exemplar we wave around in place of actually trying to live up to the example set. And tu quoque is a playground fallacy.

You're wrong much of it hurts and unfortunately we respond wrongly at times, most Christians have admitted they have and some of the atheist have and I appreciate those who do so.

Really? I've never seen the slightest sign you even try, but it's not like I've never missed a post of yours OR like I have a great memory, so I'm happy to take your word for it. It would be nice to occasionally see a post that demonstrates the caring in which you so readily try to drape yourself. You're always as good as your last post with me, should you decide to give showing caring instead of just saying you care a try.

That's the opinion of one who claims not to be an anti-Christian, yet shows how anti-Christian he is in most of his posts.

If I based my opinion on your posts, I probably would be anti-Christian. But you're not Christianity, you're just one guy on the internet, and not being impressed by you or your particular flavor of Christian theology says nothing about how I feel about Christians or Christianity in general. It's not your Christianity I take issue with. It's something else about your posts I find frustrating. Please read the rest of my signature before you assume that your Christianity is the relevant quality in our disagreement.

Persecuted that's funny, Christians in this country are not persecuted.

And thankfully so. Sadly, too many people, including Christians, suffer real persecution and oppression in some parts of the world, which is a real shame and the sooner it gets better the happier I'll be. I'm glad you recognize the difference between being persecuted and not always getting your own way or people arguing with you. That's a point in your favor compared to some of your more pearl-clutching co-religionists.

Why do you throw so much hate at us.

It's not hate, it's irritation, and it's because you're being an ass.

A lot of the atheist do what you described and on a regular bases, anyone reading these post on this forum can see this, you can't fool them.

You mean go to Christian forums to tell people they're never getting into heaven and death is oblivion? How could someone get that from this forum? Is it what you imagine we do when we're not here? An atheist who goes to a Christian (or Muslim or whatever) forum to make an ass of themselves deserves what they get. I don't indulge, myself. I don't see the attraction of invading someone else's community and being disrespectful. I do belong to a Muslim forum that I rarely visit and have had no trouble being respectful, recognizing that I am a guest in their community. I've been barked at by those people who bark at all strangers that all online communities seem to have, but otherwise trouble-free. Of course, I'm not there to deconvert them, which may help.

I've never threatened or said any specifically deserves hell and I challenge you to show me where I have.

First, I challenge you show me where I've said or done things you never claimed I did in the first place, and then we can talk about that. You're more like a thug who comes into someone's store and tells them what the Don's gonna have done to them if they don't start cooperatin', capish?

We're not perfect, we do make mistakes, but there's one mistake we haven't made, refusing to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

No one's asking for perfection, just something different about you that supports the claim that you have some wonderful thing in your life that the rest of us don't. Accepting Jesus hasn't done anything for you that I can tell. There are some really good people who are Christians, but there are some really good people who are Hindus, Muslims, and so on. Every religion claims it has the really special special sauce, and Christianity is just like all the rest in that regard. Long on tell and short on show.

I have all kinds of evidence but, you dismiss it without even considering the consequences or considering it's validity.

For starters, appeal to consequences is a fallacy. The supposed consequences are irrelevant to the truth or falsity of a claim. If the consequences of not believing a claim are bad, you can get in a double fallacy: appeal to consequences and appeal to force (believe or else). If I say 'If you wash my car I'll give you a thousand dollars', would you believe me? Are you more likely to wash my car if I say 'If you wash my car I'll give you a million dollars and if you don't an asteroid will hit the city and kill us all'? The consequences are part of your claim, only a fool would worry about them without the claim, including the part about the consequences, being shown to be likely.

For the second, I assure you that the validity of your evidence will be carefully considered. I suspect you're witholding it because, deep down, you know whatever it is, isn't really valid. It probably isn't even really evidence.

What do you mean in the minority, we're already there and it's our fault, unnatural sex gets more attention and carries more weight than Christianity, it's become a sad day for this country.

It's pretty clear by now that no one is more interested in what they regard as unnatural sex than fundamentalist Christians. Fundamentalists are in a slight minority, and it's shrinking fast, partly because of their fascination with and hatred of those with different sexual orientations than the one of which they approve. I know you consider yourself the arbiter of who is and isn't a Christian, but since I'm not God, I'll take the word of the people who consider themselves Christians, and by that standard, the USA is still around 70-80% Christian. It's unseemly to whine that Christians are a minority when they're at least 90% of the elected officials in this country and the only thing that keeps them from turning the country into a theocracy is the Constitution and a certain degree of being unwilling to resort to a violent overthrow of the government to get their way. Fundamentalist efforts to indoctrinate other people's children in public schools often go unopposed for years until someone finally brings their activities to the attention of the courts, and that's not counting open efforts to bring Christian religious doctrine into government-run schools that are supposed to adhere to the law of the land.

What's really sad for you from your point of view, I think, is that you don't have to be against gay marriage to be Christian. Heck, in 20 years, Christian churches will probably be claiming gay marriage as a victory for Christianity and that gay people should be grateful to Christianity for standing up for their right to marry. Kind of like the way Christians today take credit for ending slavery when hardly any of them belong to the denominations that actually actively stood against it.

Look, not always getting your way doesn't make you persecuted, and it doesn't make you a minority, either. We have a Constitutional Republic that provides for the protection of minorities from the tyranny of the majority. Otherwise our democracy would devolve to two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

---

You presented a question like this and I gave you an answer, you said no Christian has ever tried to answer it, yet I found it quite easy to answer, that answer still holds for this question since it's similar. Also I'm saying to you what's said to me by many atheist here, do you really presume you can speak for God, what makes you believe you can set down rules for or from God. Making up things to drive others in a corner isn't quite honest. Also you can't be a prophet, I answered the question.

GC

Prediction fulfilled quickly, I see. 'I answered it somewhere else' seems to be lining up to be the standard theist deflection these days.

It's a yes or no question. After the yes or no, perhaps elaboration is in order, but it's still yes or no. It shouldn't be this hard to drag out of you unless you have a problem with both answers.