Even if there was a god, I can't see any reason to believe it is good or worthy of worship. Even if it was present in a perceptible way and proven good by actions that it obviously committed, I still see no reason to worship it. I created my children, I love them, teach them, and provide for them. I don't ask or want them to worship me. I don't feel the need to bow down before any god. I believe that if there was a god and it was really as great and amazing as its followers say, it wouldn't need to have its ego stroked so badly.

(December 5, 2014 at 12:19 am)Godschild Wrote:

(December 4, 2014 at 1:58 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: It seems the procedure would be clear once in hell. Surely they'll beg for forgiveness then, when they know what the right religion is and understand the penalty for not seeking forgiveness?

They'll know there is no release from hell, they passed up their opportunity and they will resent God forever, they will hate God and His creation more intensely than ever, they will seethe forever cursing God and reliving every sin every moment of eternity, the more wrong one has done the worse their existence in hell will be, see they will be their own punishment, living in terror and horror ie, weeping and nashing of teeth, begging for the fire and brimstone for some relief of their own living terror. A life they created in this life, a punishment they created in this life, living in darkness never seeing anyone, yet hearing everyone else, reliving their terror and horror forever, with not one moments rest form it. No sleep, no rest, nothing to relieve the mental and physical torment they created for themselves in this life, yes they create their own punishment and chose to live with it forever. This is why I tell you that God is not responsible for your own personally created hell.

You seem to have a whole lot of detail on hell beyond what the Bible says, and a poor understanding of how people relate to their torturers. If hell doesn't make them beg for forgiveness, it can only be because it isn't that bad. Truly suffering people will say anything to make it stop. I suppose cursing would kick in when it's well-established that God is merciless and will never forgive them.

But thanks, I'm sure the lurkers find your religion much more attractive now that you've explained more of it.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: It is, all one has to do is chose Christ as savior in this life, see above to know why Christians call Him savior, because unlike atheist want to believe there is something to be saved from, one's own personal self.

But God is unable to forgive dead people, eh?

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: God gives us the choice to live with Him forever or not to live with Him forever, in eternity there are only two places to live.

That seems silly. Why not a hundred? Or a million? What kind of moral and intellectual midget would only come up with eternal bliss or eternal sorrow for finite acts? What about eternal meh? Eternal replays until you get it right? The Hindu afterlife (afterlives) makes a lot more sense from the point of view of justice, mercy, and fairness.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: That's what this life is about, to accept the life God offers through Christ or to live one's own life, God makes the offer, so yes by necessity God gives us the choice.

Through you, you claim, and I've rarely run into someone who makes Christianity sound like the wrong way to go more than you do. If it's really your job to convince us of this, and God is real, he should really help you and he's clearly not. You make him sound demented.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why, He gives chances to the end of one's life.

As long as you can't know he really exists, you get a chance. As soon as you really know the score, all chances are withdrawn. A cosmic 'gotcha!'.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: He extended His mercy throughout one's life.

What mercy does someone who dies when they're three get?

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Also, there would be no justice in allowing someone to live against God their entire life and after death giving them amnesty, why, because how would that be fair to those who chose to live for God before death.

They would have to be monsters to prefer that people who didn't agree with them suffer for eternity. I wouldn't wish you a bad day for not being more rational (or kind, or compassionate, or charitable), let alone any significant suffering. I'd certainly rather put up with your company than see you tortured because it wasn't fair to me to have you around.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: One more thing here, I'm quite confused, people here cry foul when someone like Jeffrey chooses Christ right before he died and now there's a claim of appeal right after death, curious just curious.

I know it's hard for you to tell the difference between cannibals and decent people who happen not to be Christians, GC, so I'll take that question as sincere. Dahmer can get in if he repents and asks for forgiveness five minutes before he dies, but a Hindu who adopted orphans and died saving a missionary can't get forgiveness five minutes after she dies. It's a cockamamie system. If there is a God and an afterlife, it's got to be run better than that ridiculous set-up you claim.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: We witness to people about their choices, we tell them what's behind each door, yet God and his followers are blamed for others wrong choices, that's the reasoning of a child.

Believing fairy tales based on someone's say-so is the reasoning of a child.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: You, blaming us for your actions and opinions, that's the same as I described above, childish reasoning. You find excuses to reject God and blame us, see why there are no reprieves after death.

My actions and opinions are my own, and yours are yours. My observing the unseemly relish with which you comtemplate the damnation of those you fail to convert is a side matter. If I were anti-Christian, I'd be grateful for the display of callousness, but in fairness I'd like to remind lurkers that GC only represents a narrow brand of hateful fundamentalism, most Christians are decent folk, and some don't even think you automatically suffer forever if you don't believe their stories.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes, there are those who tiptoe though the tulips, but they avoid telling people the truth, why, they want to be pleasing to everyone, they look for kudos from both sides, they play both sides of the fence.

Or maybe they took the admonition of Jesus to be as harmless as doves and wise as serpents to heart. You have to give him credit for getting that you draw people in with the sweetness and light and don't drop the eternal torture on them until they're in so deep that it's hard to get out. Modern 'evangelists' have forgotten that lesson, and are a good portion of the reason that Christianity has begun to dwindle in the USA.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: They gamble with they're own salvation, they hinder others who may be searching, why, they desire the first sin, the sin of selfishness.

Apparently the first sin is not believing everything you hear.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes Drich and I might be abrasive at times, we tell the real and brutal truth at times, not to gain points with anyone but, because we care.

Is that how Jesus told you to witness? I'm pretty sure he gave instructions that don't translate easily to ranting on the interwebz.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: If you desire to see us any other way but caring is your choice, but remember this we have spent a great amount of time here that we could have easily spent doing other thing, things more enjoyable than the treatment we get here.

You enjoy the treatment you get here very much, I think.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: There are very few who come here and stay as long as we have, including atheist. Please remember this, we came in love, the love of Christ.

If you come in love, why are you such an ass? I think you come because you like to argue, and you like to feel persecuted. You know you can get a rise out the atheists with your 'believe me or you'll suffer in hell forever and you deserve it, too!' approach, and you keep coming back and keep doing it because THAT is what you love.

The number one tool in a real witness's toolbox is how they behave. You don't have physical evidence. You don't have reason and logic. You don't have miracles. The one thing you have is the way you act. You could get half the 'Nones' back in five years if 10% of Christians exhibited 10% more of the qualites Jesus advocated for his followers. Fat chance of that.

I do think when Christians become a minority here, they'll have a reformation of sorts. Being in the minority is good for improving a religion's behavior. When they can't throw around their weight, it makes them a little more thoughtful. IMHO.

---

(December 5, 2014 at 1:01 am)IATIA Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 11:01 pm)professor Wrote: Have you ever wondered WHY power corrupts so effectively?

If you could do anything you want without any repercussions, would you not?

But what I want is for the world to be a better place. I don't usually fantasize about having God-like power, but I sometimes fantasize about having Gates-like wealth...and I think of all the good things I could do with it (not that Mr. Gates isn't doing a lot of good). Sure, I'd indulge myself a little, and make sure my friends and family were taken care of, but it would only take a percent or two of that kind of money to keep me happy. I'd feel bad about myself if I didn't use the vast majority of it (or at least the vast majority of the interest on it) to improve people's lives.

You don't have to be that good of a person to not want to make people suffer and want to expend a portion of your resources to help the unforunate and the oppressed. Just run-of-the mill decent.

(December 5, 2014 at 12:28 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(December 5, 2014 at 12:19 am)Godschild Wrote:

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They'll know there is no release from hell, they passed up their opportunity and they will resent God forever, they will hate God and His creation more intensely than ever, they will seethe forever cursing God and reliving every sin every moment of eternity, the more wrong one has done the worse their existence in hell will be, see they will be their own punishment, living in terror and horror ie, weeping and nashing of teeth, begging for the fire and brimstone for some relief of their own living terror. A life they created in this life, a punishment they created in this life, living in darkness never seeing anyone, yet hearing everyone else, reliving their terror and horror forever, with not one moments rest form it. No sleep, no rest, nothing to relieve the mental and physical torment they created for themselves in this life, yes they create their own punishment and chose to live with it forever. This is why I tell you that God is not responsible for your own personally created hell.

---

You seem to have a whole lot of detail on hell beyond what the Bible says, and a poor understanding of how people relate to their torturers.

Your correct, however there are things in scripture that point to what I have said, or something close to the same. Hell is described as a place of darkness, that could be translated in different ways though.
I have no problem with how people react to their tormentors ie. tortures as you call them. In what I stated those in hell are there own tormentors, and they have to react to themselves and that is how I see people reacting to themselves. You're trying to interpret what I said in a way to use it to your way of thinking, take it and argue it as it is, please.

Quote: If hell doesn't make them beg for forgiveness, it can only be because it isn't that bad. Truly suffering people will say anything to make it stop. I suppose cursing would kick in when it's well-established that God is merciless and will never forgive them.

In what I shared God is not responsible for their suffering they are and they realize it. So who do they beg to for forgiveness, themselves, what good is that. Don't you think that the mental and physical stresses of hate, terror and horror as I described them would be worse than fire and brimstone. As I said in my earlier post God can't go against justice, the justice of an all knowing God.

Quote:But thanks, I'm sure the lurkers find your religion much more attractive now that you've explained more of it.

What lurkers, I'm insure what you mean?

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: It is, all one has to do is chose Christ as savior in this life, see above to know why Christians call Him savior, because unlike atheist want to believe there is something to be saved from, one's own personal self.

Quote:But God is unable to forgive dead people, eh?

Unable, yes. He want forsake His own word, He's true to what He says, they have an opportunity while they are alive, and that's how it is, like it or not.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: God gives us the choice to live with Him forever or not to live with Him forever, in eternity there are only two places to live.

Quote:That seems silly. Why not a hundred? Or a million? What kind of moral and intellectual midget would only come up with eternal bliss or eternal sorrow for finite acts? What about eternal meh? Eternal replays until you get it right? The Hindu afterlife (afterlives) makes a lot more sense from the point of view of justice, mercy, and fairness.

With the Hindu's you could wind up a worm forever, fish bait, that's a bad deal in anyone's book, except for the fish that is.
It's God's creation and his right to do with it as He with his omniscience sees fit. I've explained to you so many times that unforgiven sin eternal, not finite, so terenal justice is only fair.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: That's what this life is about, to accept the life God offers through Christ or to live one's own life, God makes the offer, so yes by necessity God gives us the choice.

Quote:Through you, you claim, and I've rarely run into someone who makes Christianity sound like the wrong way to go more than you do. If it's really your job to convince us of this, and God is real, he should really help you and he's clearly not. You make him sound demented.

The reason you believe what you wrote is because those who reject God's truth see things that way, so yes God's helping me, that's why you hate what I say, Christ told His disciples that this would be the reaction of those who hate Him.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why, He gives chances to the end of one's life.

Quote:As long as you can't know he really exists, you get a chance. As soon as you really know the score, all chances are withdrawn. A cosmic 'gotcha!'.

Not hardly, I know He exists and guess what, because I do gives you no excuse not to know, God will tell all that who reject Christ.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: He extended His mercy throughout one's life.

Quote:What mercy does someone who dies when they're three get?

A place with God forever, where there will be no more sorrow, sickness, hate and ect.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Also, there would be no justice in allowing someone to live against God their entire life and after death giving them amnesty, why, because how would that be fair to those who chose to live for God before death.

Quote:They would have to be monsters to prefer that people who didn't agree with them suffer for eternity.

I don't want anyone to suffer for eternity and neither does God, that's why Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice for all mankind. It's not our choice where they wind up, it is their's, we have no say in the matter.

Quote:I wouldn't wish you a bad day for not being more rational (or kind, or compassionate, or charitable), let alone any significant suffering. I'd certainly rather put up with your company than see you tortured because it wasn't fair to me to have you around.

People with unforgiven sin would cause trouble in heaven, why because they haven't changed. That would make heaven something other than what God promised.
You go to a movie everyone has recommend as an excellent movie, and you don't like it, you're not exactly happy with those who said it was good.
So, no the people who gave their lives to Christ would not get along with those who think they deserve something they did not commit to.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: One more thing here, I'm quite confused, people here cry foul when someone like Jeffrey chooses Christ right before he died and now there's a claim of appeal right after death, curious just curious.

Quote:I know it's hard for you to tell the difference between cannibals and decent people who happen not to be Christians, GC, so I'll take that question as sincere.

It's serious. I can tell the difference and it's small of you to say I can't. There's a difference Dahmer recognized his sin and was remorseful, he chose Christ as his savior and the Father granted him forgiveness through grace. If a man like Dahmer was, can see the truth and respond to it, then why do you find it so hard.

Quote:Dahmer can get in if he repents and asks for forgiveness five minutes before he dies, but a Hindu who adopted orphans and died saving a missionary can't get forgiveness five minutes after she dies.

There is a difference Dahmer sought forgiveness because he recognized his sin. The Hindu thought she was good enough to get to heaven on her own, doesn't work that way, Christ makes us worthy of heaven.

Quote:It's a cockamamie system. If there is a God and an afterlife, it's got to be run better than that ridiculous set-up you claim.

There is noway I or anyone could describe the awesomeness of heaven, but I can and do make it clear how one gets there. Sorry if you can't handle something made so simple, that even the simple minded can understand.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: We witness to people about their choices, we tell them what's behind each door, yet God and his followers are blamed for others wrong choices, that's the reasoning of a child.

Quote:Believing fairy tales based on someone's say-so is the reasoning of a child.

Granted, however the story I've been told came from God, not a human, yes a human witnessed the story but, God confirmed it's truth and worth.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: You, blaming us for your actions and opinions, that's the same as I described above, childish reasoning. You find excuses to reject God and blame us, see why there are no reprieves after death.

Quote:My actions and opinions are my own, and yours are yours. My observing the unseemly relish with which you comtemplate the damnation of those you fail to convert is a side matter.

First of all we need to get something straight, all I can do is witness, it is God's job to save you, I have no power to do so, nor would I want that kind of power.

Quote:If I were anti-Christian, I'd be grateful for the display of callousness, but in fairness I'd like to remind lurkers that GC only represents a narrow brand of hateful fundamentalism,

I don't see people that come here and see what's going on as lurkers, since you do I would think that would go against your credibility to call others as haters. I do not represent hate and despise it. To the one who say, "if I were an anti-Christian," yet demonstrates it almost daily, has little credibility with anyone.

Quote:most Christians are decent folk, and some don't even think you automatically suffer forever if you don't believe their stories.

It's not my fault that others try to white wash God's plan and justice, I have no control over them, you see it's those who cause others to say I've nothing to lose by being God's enemy. Not true you make yourself an enemy of God and you will pay the price you ran up here in this life.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes, there are those who tiptoe though the tulips, but they avoid telling people the truth, why, they want to be pleasing to everyone, they look for kudos from both sides, they play both sides of the fence.

Quote:Or maybe they took the admonition of Jesus to be as harmless as doves and wise as serpents to heart. You have to give him credit for getting that you draw people in with the sweetness and light and don't drop the eternal torture on them until they're in so deep that it's hard to get out.

To bad you do not understand what the saying means but, maybe some day.
Now here's the truth Jesus preached more about hell than most any other subject, He preached more about hell than heaven, seems He thought it would be a good place for humans to avoid, it's why He paid our price and gave us a choice to avoid it. Jesus said Christians would be hated because of Him, yet I readily accept that, but don't get me wrong it does hurt.

Quote: Modern 'evangelists' have forgotten that lesson, and are a good portion of the reason that Christianity has begun to dwindle in the USA.

You're right the modern church is at fault, it's gone soft. This nation was a much stronger Christian nation when Christians witnessed the real truth. Angry people such as yourself have intimidated Christians, but I'm not one easily intimidated.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: They gamble with they're own salvation, they hinder others who may be searching, why, they desire the first sin, the sin of selfishness.

Quote:Apparently the first sin is not believing everything you hear.

Lucifer,Eve and Adam fell to the sin of selfishness that brought on the sin of disobedience.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes Drich and I might be abrasive at times, we tell the real and brutal truth at times, not to gain points with anyone but, because we care.

Quote:Is that how Jesus told you to witness? I'm pretty sure he gave instructions that don't translate easily to ranting on the interwebz.

Most not all atheist are the champions of ranting here, give yourself some credit.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: If you desire to see us any other way but caring is your choice, but remember this we have spent a great amount of time here that we could have easily spent doing other thing, things more enjoyable than the treatment we get here.

Quote:You enjoy the treatment you get here very much, I think.

You're wrong much of it hurts and unfortunately we respond wrongly at times, most Christians have admitted they have and some of the atheist have and I appreciate those who do so.

(December 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: There are very few who come here and stay as long as we have, including atheist. Please remember this, we came in love, the love of Christ.

Quote:If you come in love, why are you such an ass? I think you come because you like to argue, and you like to feel persecuted.

That's the opinion of one who claims not to be an anti-Christian, yet shows how anti-Christian he is in most of his posts. Persecuted that's funny, Christians in this country are not persecuted.

Quote:You know you can get a rise out the atheists with your 'believe me or you'll suffer in hell forever and you deserve it, too!' approach, and you keep coming back and keep doing it because THAT is what you love.

Why do you throw so much hate at us. A lot of the atheist do what you described and on a regular bases, anyone reading these post on this forum can see this, you can't fool them. I've never threatened or said any specifically deserves hell and I challenge you to show me where I have.

Quote:The number one tool in a real witness's toolbox is how they behave. You don't have physical evidence. You don't have reason and logic. You don't have miracles. The one thing you have is the way you act. You could get half the 'Nones' back in five years if 10% of Christians exhibited 10% more of the qualites Jesus advocated for his followers. Fat chance of that.

We're not perfect, we do make mistakes, but there's one mistake we haven't made, refusing to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. I have all kinds of evidence but, you dismiss it without even considering the consequences or considering it's validity.

Quote:I do think when Christians become a minority here, they'll have a reformation of sorts. Being in the minority is good for improving a religion's behavior. When they can't throw around their weight, it makes them a little more thoughtful. IMHO.

What do you mean in the minority, we're already there and it's our fault, unnatural sex gets more attention and carries more weight than Christianity, it's become a sad day for this country.

GC

(December 5, 2014 at 7:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: We're not perfect, we do make mistakes, but there's one mistake we haven't made, refusing to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. I have all kinds of evidence but, you dismiss it without even considering the consequences or considering it's validity.

See, that 's the problem. All of your evidence comes from a single book and personal experience. That's not evidence, that's faith.

Also I can't take anyone seriously who's stuck in the 19th century when it comes to science. I can't take anyone seriously, who literally believes in Adam and Eve and the Great flood. Someone who even goes against jewish scholars in saying the exodus happened.

And it goes even further. How is one supposed to treat someone quite literally lusting for the end of days. Not that I believe in that kind of stuff, but it's disgusting and possibly dangerous, since people craving for that to happen, will try their best to make it happen. A politician coming to power holding such believes should be sectioned, for they're a danger to the public.

Then there's the intolerance. Because some book written about 3000 years ago, people embark on all kinds of hate missions. Be it against the gay community, be it against other lifestyles that don't conform with their particular brand of christianity or any other religion for that matter.

We are not making the end times come to pass.
We are not in control of the increase in earthquakes, or natural disasters.
we are not longing for the wreckage to come but for the resolution of it.

The sin of man has brought forth the Man of Sin.
And he is in place because people who call themselves Christians voted against the core beliefs of Christianity.
This time, you can rightly include blame toward us for what is and what is coming.

(December 5, 2014 at 11:08 am)Strider Wrote:

(December 5, 2014 at 4:48 am)Godschild Wrote:

---

He want ask me that, He knows I have chosen Christ, what I will do is be very sad when you come before God the Father at judgement, if you're still of the same mind and heart as you are now.

---

And we will be sad for you because you devoted your entire life to something that doesn't exist instead of realizing the beauty of science and logic and the wonder of the brief time we are able to spend on Earth.

I have an appreciation of true science. I've not wasted my life it's be quite full and wonderful.

GC Wrote:No, that's what you do, without proof I might add. God has no faults, none.

Quote:I've pointed this out in another thread, but god decided to blot out human existence because they were wicked and he regretted making them. How does a being of perfection, a being with no faults, experience regret? This feeling implies that he made a poor decision. Something with no faults could never make a wrong decision.

Where did you come up with your idea that God regretted creating man, seems you're applying a word to a passage, so you can make an argument. You should check out scripture before you spout out things it doesn't say and try then to make an argument from the word you applied, talk about a waste of time.
God said He was sorry He created man. (sorry-adj. meaning- unpleasant state, mournful, sad. God did not make a wrong decision, man did and paid for it.

GC Wrote:You weren't around at that time and it's not your's to have a say so in, just like my life, it's mine and you have no say so in it.

Quote:And you weren't either so how is your say more relevant than ours?

I had no say in creation and I did not say I did.

GC Wrote:The evidence I have is spiritual, something you refuse to accept and I've shared truth here many time sorry you didn't accept it.
Now I guess if you're a man that sticks by what he says to the very end, you have put your finial eternal destination in my hands, that is what God calls a foolish idea. If I leave here and you hold to what you say well....
You should take on the personal responsibility of you actions against God and accept Christ.

GC

Quote:Spiritual evidence? That's an oxymoron if there ever was one. Evidence isn't evidence if it isn't tangible or measurable or knowable.

Just because you do not accept the spiritual doesn't mean it's doesn't exist or that it's irrelevant, it actually means you can't accept anything outside your little world. As far as your definitions above, God is tangible, measurable and knowable. You haven't experienced this but I have and it is the greatest thing one could imagine. I'm sorry you do not know what I do.

GC

Again no one gives a rats ass about your delusions. If you're going to make assertions over and over back them up with real evidence or stfu.

Here's a quicky. Not original, but interesting.

Religious guys, God tells you to kill your family, do you do it? Don't say he wouldn't, he's God he can do whatever he likes. He tells you there's new rules, that he just made. And that you gotta kill your family if you truly believe. He doesn't have to explain his reasons.

Don't say you can suddenly tell its not God either, that's pathetic. It is God, and you know it. That's the scenario.

If it happened,

Massacre or insubordination?

---

This just in: God is watching your answers so he says take this seriously, no screwing around.

Anyone who says "No because..." FAILS. God doesn't want excuses. God does say that he will never do this though, and you know it, so you can answer honestly and it won't matter.

---

God says the world is gonna end in a minute so hurry up and answer.

He predicts no one will answer the question as asked.

The silence is deafening.

I'll kick off then.

No I bloody wouldn't! Fuck off! Erm, present company excepted, God.

He's ate all my sodding bread.

Yes, yes, we'll go to the park later. Geez.

(December 5, 2014 at 8:16 pm)professor Wrote: We are not making the end times come to pass.
We are not in control of the increase in earthquakes, or natural disasters.
we are not longing for the wreckage to come but for the resolution of it.

The sin of man has brought forth the Man of Sin.
And he is in place because people who call themselves Christians voted against the core beliefs of Christianity.
This time, you can rightly include blame toward us for what is and what is coming.

See. That's what I meant by how am I supposed to take this seriously? We're living on different mental planes.