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Becoming an angry atheist
#82
RE: Becoming an angry atheist
(December 9, 2014 at 9:13 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(December 9, 2014 at 4:49 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: ...you are assuming that there is intelligence behind natural order because what order we see created here on Earth is the product of human intelligence ... hence, anthropic fallacy.

Your critique assumes that something other than intelligence is ultimately responsible for natural order. Formal and final causes are just as involved in the creation of galaxies as everything else.

No. My critique assumes that a reasonable argument is not circular.

(December 9, 2014 at 9:13 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(December 9, 2014 at 4:49 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: .Now, if you want to argue that the laws of physics themselves require an intelligence in order to operate, then I'd like to see your proposed mechanism for an immaterial being to affect material existence.
And here I'm the one accused of begging the question! You ask for a mechanism because you already assume a mechanistic universe devoid of formal and final causes.

I'm not begging the question; the operation of the physical laws is an observed phenomenon resulting from the ways matter interacts. I'm perfectly willing to entertain any hypothesis you put forward in order to support your broader point that an immaterial being can affect material changes; that was my request. Your reasoning, particularly concerning final cause, is where you come a-cropper. Assuming purpose in the material structure of the Universe assigns intent to its operation; but nowhere do you demonstrate the intentional actor.

Additionally, I'm not stating that the Universe is devoid of a formal cause. But your assertion that it has an immaterial final cause is unsupported, just as it was in Aquinas's day.

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Messages In This Thread
Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 6, 2014 at 11:52 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Esquilax - December 6, 2014 at 12:34 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 12:42 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Esquilax - December 6, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 12:54 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 7, 2014 at 4:58 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Whateverist - December 6, 2014 at 1:19 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 1:24 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Whateverist - December 6, 2014 at 1:59 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 6, 2014 at 4:10 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by simplemoss - December 8, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by polar bear - December 6, 2014 at 12:59 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Elskidor - December 6, 2014 at 1:03 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 1:07 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by FreeTony - December 6, 2014 at 1:39 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 6, 2014 at 2:09 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LastPoet - December 6, 2014 at 3:10 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by KevinM1 - December 6, 2014 at 4:24 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 6, 2014 at 7:48 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 12:14 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 7, 2014 at 1:58 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 12:01 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 7, 2014 at 4:30 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Minimalist - December 6, 2014 at 7:52 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:03 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 5:12 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by FreeTony - December 7, 2014 at 6:45 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 6:50 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 12:28 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by abaris - December 7, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Minimalist - December 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 7, 2014 at 2:45 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 7, 2014 at 2:59 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 7, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 5:13 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 7, 2014 at 8:38 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 8, 2014 at 2:47 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 9:57 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 8, 2014 at 10:09 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 8, 2014 at 10:19 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Whateverist - December 8, 2014 at 7:37 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Chas - December 17, 2014 at 10:34 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 3:12 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 7, 2014 at 2:30 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:32 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:56 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 7, 2014 at 3:14 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by abaris - December 7, 2014 at 3:18 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LivingNumbers - December 7, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Rarthyr500 - December 7, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LivingNumbers - December 7, 2014 at 5:58 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Rarthyr500 - December 7, 2014 at 6:01 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LivingNumbers - December 7, 2014 at 6:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Silver - December 7, 2014 at 9:20 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 11:55 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 8, 2014 at 1:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 8, 2014 at 6:36 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 8, 2014 at 12:39 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 8, 2014 at 4:56 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 6:24 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 9, 2014 at 4:49 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 9, 2014 at 9:13 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 9, 2014 at 12:14 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 16, 2014 at 6:54 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 17, 2014 at 11:31 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by dyresand - December 17, 2014 at 12:56 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 17, 2014 at 1:51 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 1:46 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by TreeSapNest - December 8, 2014 at 2:11 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 8, 2014 at 3:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by KevinM1 - December 8, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 8, 2014 at 1:53 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by TreeSapNest - December 8, 2014 at 2:26 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 4:05 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 5:27 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 9, 2014 at 6:00 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 6:11 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 9:17 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 9, 2014 at 9:19 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 9:26 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Tonus - December 9, 2014 at 12:25 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by dyresand - December 9, 2014 at 4:21 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by The Valkyrie - December 9, 2014 at 4:26 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 10, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by dyresand - December 10, 2014 at 2:35 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 10, 2014 at 2:44 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by The Valkyrie - December 10, 2014 at 3:07 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Elskidor - December 10, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Spooky - December 13, 2014 at 6:38 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Lemonvariable72 - December 13, 2014 at 7:15 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 17, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 17, 2014 at 1:49 pm

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