A simple challenge for atheists

[The Grand Nudger]

Even before the current laws of nature existed, the concept of cause and effect still applies.

What does "before" mean in that context? Whats before the beginning Steve? With no time how do we determine a causal relationship, or the direction in which that relationship flows, without all of this..wtf is a causal relationship at all? That's quite the demand you've placed, don't you think?

Again...even if it did, even if this was true, because our ability to reason is based on the behavior of -this- when/where, we can't trust the conclusions it generates some otherwhere/when. See how insidious this whole bit is? Done, full stop, fin....the rules cant be trusted, it's not the claims themselves "before the before" - the issue is fundamental..or maybe it isn't....lol (there's nowhere to go, it all collapses into contradiction or uncertainty - no statements can be made that aren't self refuting, not even this statement).

This is the terminus of knowledge for us by any means we have yet discovered or invented in order to model or predict -anything-. You can certainly make the demand, as you've done, but once you demand that these rules apply before the before they apply to whatever was in the before the before...and that includes the god you want to smuggle in - and if they don't apply to this god business, then why do they apply to the universe? If the set of things that "doesnt begin to exist" includes only "god"...or the set of things that "begin to exist" excludes only "god" then the words chosen are a smokescreen. I can rephrase your argument to directly refer to the concept which you are concealing. At which point....the statements turn into complete gibberish.