RE: Angry Atheists and Anti-Theists
December 28, 2018 at 12:26 pm
(This post was last modified: December 28, 2018 at 1:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(December 28, 2018 at 11:55 am)tackattack Wrote: The emotional responses are great.I get that you think you're trying to build something better, and I get that you think you've provided counterpoints, above..to my comments.
(December 27, 2018 at 6:19 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:
Well let's define hatred.
1 : extreme dislike or disgust : hate
Note common definition 2 from webster bolding by me
2 : ill will or resentment that is usually mutual : prejudiced hostility or animosity
Why is it usually mutual? Isn't resentment at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury? It doesn't have to be that they individually have been hurt by religion. You are a prime example. You were not born into religion, yet a self proclaimed anti-theist. So I assume your resentment is based on the value/ lack of in the institution to society. I'm entirely certain that anti-theism was originally envisioned as a bulwark to that trend, however it only goes to show how intolerance and hatred breed mutual hatred.
"feed fuel to the fire" is both...
A; an implication of their having been polluted...but by what? Hate
and
B; an instance of religion having influenced me to make such an implication in the first place.
Water does try and find it's level. But continuing to add speed and volume is what carves canyons over time. Now I know you're trying to topple the dam that is religion, and I'm trying to bulwark the institution. I do so acknowledging it's shortcomings (and working on them from within) and try to uphold it's virtuous aspects. You have not proven that hatred doesn't cause more hatred, only demonstrated that with your emotional pleas. At least I'm trying to build something better.
On preaching hate from the pulpit, support your assertion. Hatred and intolerance can be used to move and motivate people, as is evidenced here, but to my knowledge it doesn't sell as well publicly on a society level. I can't see how a religion espousing hatred, without a theocracy enforcing it, could be successful in that endeavor.
Imagine a world, however, in which the response above actually reinforced them?
We begin, for example..with some doomed venture in defining hate, but should I actually have to explain that praising and agreeing with the lord of hell and his many grudges is hateful? To whom, what kind of a person doesn't realize the fundamental underpinnings of such beliefs? Except, ofc, a person so poisoned by their religious beliefs that they conflate what is evil with what is pious and good. Now, you may not be such a person..but you have been poisoned at least enough to assert that hate for mass consumption isn't successful, or suggest that it's not constantly hammered out from the pulpit -for- mass consumption. You actually ask me to support this assertion without a trace of irony? Hate has been stacking knots on knots for centuries. No theocracy required (but hey, it;s pretty good at setting them up...ziiiiing!
). It's wildly successful with the masses. No matter how many times we thinks it;s some ancient defeated evil, some new nutbar steps up and starts running his mouth to the sound of thundering applause, and more than a few amens. You must know this, since you acknowledge religions shortcomings and seek to build something better. Better than what, praytell, and when you've told me, explain how you came to ask me to support that assertion again?
My having not been born into a religion is a boon when it comes to seeing religious propositions for what they are. I don't have the baggage of personal indoctrination or the need to validate cherished loved ones and rationalize their beliefs against who I know them to be. I see hate for hate, even when hate is smiling, and it's our NaNa all dressed up in her sunday best. She doesn't hate all those Others™..you see..she just loves the lord, and love is good, right...and the lord is always right..good....and -that's- why she keeps pulling the lever for horrid shit and saying terrible things. It's just what jesus would have wanted.
Anti-theism actually started out as maltheism, people who took a look at the world around them and, as believers... said "no good god could do any of this, or allow it to happen". The folks who wrote your magic book actually thought that...so, "christians" took their magic book...then had them executed for heresy. Today, it's mostly pointing out the harmful effects of belief in a theistic god, and it's not exactly hard work. Broken people and broken families, abusive laws, grifty megachurches, clergy who escape accountability for horrid crimes, pogrom after pogrom after pogrom, personal and institutional bigotry, the rejection of science even in the face of existential threats, generation after generation after generation of abject ignorance. This is just what happens when we begin to imagine that there is some lord of the cosmos..and that, further, he's a hell of alot like us..and wants what we want, and hates what we hate, and is disgusted by what disgusts us. None of this is "theism done wrong"...as other theists hilariously assert. They're doing it right, they're just not like you....so neither is their god....but the same credence and authority and deference is granted, by them..to their cuntgod, that you might grant to your own hippygod. How do you plan to confront that when you must, by needs of your own beliefs, affirm it's fundamental validity? Even the seemingly "nicest" versions of a theistic god ultimately fall to their own little quirks, and they do this while providing the societal and ideological cover for the worst examples....of which, the bog standard christian god ranks highly, lol.
You can't...for example, be a christian..without asserting the validity and goodness of vicarious redemption through the blood sacrifice of the better man. That's a stink that just won't rub off or wash out. Deny that, and you deny what makes christ..christ. Can't possibly imagine how that would inevitably lead to misery in the real world..I suppose you're going to play the three monkeys and ask me to support some assertion that this just -might- be a bad thing to validate and form ones belief set around?
Or maybe you'll content yourself with imagining that a person who points out hateful and intolerant things and is disgusted by them is, in fact, the real hateful and intolerant person? Fueling some fire that doesn't even need fuel to burn, or what have you?
-as a minor aside. One of my favorite convos on this board was about the subject of vicarious redemption, that non-negotiable item of christian faith, with a member of the believing set.
It was great because it cut right through all the dross and bickering. It was great not because I managed to somehow talk him out of this belief..but that we very quickly reached a point where.... being prescient enough of his beliefs and respectful enough of our having the convo, he realized that this thing troubled him, even though he believed in it. He realized that he was the kind of person who..given a time machine set to the day of the crucifixion..wouldn't help or try to get that poor fucker down off those sticks. It didn't seem like a comforting realization....but he owned it like a fuckin boss!
Those are the sorts of things about us that interest me most..we're fairly complicated creatures. We can religiously (or ideologically, religion isn;t alone in this) assert that which is personally abhorrent to us and so effectively compartmentalize it that we may not, ourselves..even realize what we're doing. NaNa, from my comments above, does precisely that and has been doing so for decades, right? Good People™ can harbor disturbing little travelers in their minds.
I'm a case example, myself....jolly bowl of jelly, happy daddy to a bunch of little rugrats. Devoted husband, bag of lime and a shovel in the trunk kind of friend. I like plants, I run a non-profit devoted to feeding people and making low income economically depressed areas great again (lol).
OTOH, I've been known to sing pop while I shoot at people and step on others folks NaNas neck at three in the morning. Done it before...honestly, I could be induced to do it again. Like my missing theist from above, I've simply acknowledged those facts about myself and what I believe and what it can lead to. Wide is the road, and all that jazz. Imagine for a moment..if you will..if a guy like me woke up one morning and started thinking..."allaaaaaaah ahkbar, america is the great satan!".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
