Whose view of the O T is authoritative? Jewry or Christianity?

[chi pan]

Why don't you find out what Thomas Paine really thought of religion?

this was a quote from his book you may have heard it. it's called "Common Sense." he was all for religious freedom and that's what he wrote. thought he was not a christian and spoke against the beliefs of christianity he did support religious freedom.

(BTW, you have a misspelling in your quote...I would say it is accidental but I think you are too much of a phony for that. )

what spelling errors?

[Minimalist]

As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Professors - not protesters.

[chi pan]

ok i don't know why the site i got this from had that mistake but thanks for pointing it out. still doesn't change it much. it actually make more sense that was as he holds government the duty to protect professors of religion.

[Minimalist]

You're welcome.

You do understand that what Paine was talking about was protecting professors of religions from people who want a state religion so they can persecute non-believers.

Know any one like that?

[chi pan]

You're welcome.

You do understand that what Paine was talking about was protecting professors of religions from people who want a state religion so they can persecute non-believers.

Know any one like that?

but it says i hold it the duty of government to protect all professors not all people from professors. though he did believe people should be protected from a religion that has overstepped it's boundaries that's not what he was talking about. just as he speaks about christianity as a lie he wants to protect everyone's rights to do the same about any religion and to protect religious practice. that's what he was saying. the founding fathers did not write the first ammendment for nothing.

[The Grand Nudger]

[]

The recommended boundaries of religion, and exactly how much space it takes to dream it up in the first place. All kidding aside, you're absolutely right, they wrote that amendment because they understood very well how oppressive and cruel a religious boot could be. (Or a political boot with religious laces)

[Minimalist]

The Founding Fathers had the (for them) relatively recent example of early 17th century Europe tearing itself apart as rival gangs of xtians slaughtered each other to show who had the better invisible friend.
In general they were deists - they didn't give a rats' ass about jesus - but they did understand that religious strife was not a good thing. Thus the freedom of religion is meant to prevent any sort of state sponsored religion which, in their experience, would inevitably lead to vicious xtian morons killiing everyone who disagreed with them.

Voltaire's comment 'I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.' was a guiding principle for them even if it is anathema to religious assholes.

[chi pan]

the founding fathers were not deists. some were christian and some were not. Thomas Pain was not. others were. here are some quotes.

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.

--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."

--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.
John Jay- 1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

[The Grand Nudger]

And? Am I supposed to be awed by the religious convictions of the men who founded our country? Maybe I should go out pricing slaves as well? Might be helpful to remember that they were men as well, and not demi-gods with a line on the "ultimate truth".

I think you've bought into the spin that this amendment was meant to protect christianity. It was not. It was meant to protect christians from each other (as Min has pointed out, they were very familiar with inter-faith rivalry, as there was a nasty little piece of it that was relatively recent to them).

[chi pan]

I think you've bought into the spin that this amendment was meant to protect christianity. It was not. It was meant to protect christians from each other

no, it was to protect all religions from the government. there's no spin that's what it was for. "congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion"- means that congress shall make no law in favor of one religion over another; "or prohibit the free excercise thereof"- means that congress shall make no law prohibiting free excercise of religion. there is nowhere where it says churches are not allowed to do this or that, this is directed towards government.

and i pointed out christian beliefs because Minimalist denied them.