Christians: A Question

[fr0d0]

HIJACKED!!!

[KichigaiNeko]

[Cyberman]

Nota Bene for future reference: when I said Firefly, I meant Firefly, not firefly. I am a silly old sausage.

[amkerman]

Furthermore, if you agree with the last paragraph, the one that starts, "reality is not dictated by beliefs" you believe that reality exists independently of our ideas about it. All of scientific reality is based on perceptions of consciousness. If you believe that reality exists apart from our ideas of it you necessarily must believe that perceptions of consciousness are real you necessarily must believe that consciousness is real. If consciousness is real it exists apart from our ideas of what consciousness is.

The only things science believe to be real apart from their observations of or ideas about what they are are universal constants such as gravity.

If consciousness exists apart from our ideas of it must therefore be a universal constant.

Consciousness as a universal constant could be correctly called a belief in God.

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Sorry for hijacking. Stimbo and I were the only ones discussing anything and we got off topic. I actually was quite intrigued by the original topic but people seemed to lose interest.

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Stimbo I don't think I know what Firefly is.

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Were you referring to the tv series? I just googled it and that is what came up.

[Godscreated]

"Imperfect animals?" I'm a little grossed out by your beliefs. I am not going to lie. I am starting to think Christianity is a belief structure that is irredeemable in the majority of people. A scant few of you admit that the Bible is probably wrong due to translation and time. The rest of you will jump through hoops trying to justify what is absolutely ridiculous. Imperfect animals? Ha! Nothing is perfect, but the way you said that just reeks of a superiority complex. Since you can't find an excuse to be superior in reality, you turn to the bible. I think I need a break from talking about Christianity. Nothing makes me more anxious or depressed and yet I pursue these idiotic quests for understanding only to find that I am never going to get a single straight answer from a Christian -- even the ones I love or like.

Shell sorry if that grossed you out it was not intended. No, by no means do I have a superiority complex that in itself goes against christian beliefs. All I'm trying to do is help you to understand that animal sacrifices were not the perfect solution to man's sin, animal sacrifices were only a temporary patch, so to speak. I read through more of the post you and Fr0d0 put up, you still want to believe that Jesus was just a man and that by his sacrifice God condones the sacrifice of humans and the answer has to be no. Jesus was man as far as having a body of flesh, Jesus was God because he was totally righteous, something no man could ever accomplish. If I need to look it up in the OT I will, God punished the Israelite nation because that had become a practice for some of them, they sacrificed children to other gods and God was furious with them over such little value of human life. I hope that clears up God condoning human sacrifice. I also believe that God would have never allowed man to sacrifice his Son, the only purpose man had in the sacrifice of Jesus is God used the evil hearts of the Israelite religious leaders to accomplish his will. What I mean by, his will, the redemption of mankind. God took no pleasure in sacrificing Jesus. I hope this makes sense, the flood was a way in which God tried to get man set back on a right path but, as we know from the story that did not work either, God knew this would be the case but he gave man another chance to get things right, if man did not get it right there was a terrible price to be payed and that would come in two forms. First God would have to sacrifice his beloved Son for man's sin and second man's non acceptance of his Son would cost man a terrible price. God would have preferred that neither would be necessary but he knew ultimately that both would become reality.

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HIJACKED!!!

Agree.

[amkerman]

Godschild: "no, by no means do I have a superiority complex; that, in itself, goes against Christian beliefs."
- so does sinning. Yet we all do it. Constantly. Implying that you are a perfect Christian is the very essence of a superiority complex. We can't be perfect. As humans we are fully fallible. We can only do our best to recognize our faults and try to change them. And fail and ask for forgiveness.

[KichigaiNeko]

Like the good little slaves that you are??

[coffeeveritas]

Chip, you are exempt from this poll, as I already know your opinion on it.

I realize this is something of an appeal to popularity. However, I am trying to establish what the common Christian feeling on Jesus' sacrifice was, so bear with me.

If you look at the theological literature there are a number of ways of looking at it. Typically you see something along the lines of Jesus willingly suffering death in order to effect some sort of change in the fate of humanity because of the "joy set before him" and because there is, "no greater love than to lay down your life for a friend." (Two verses usually used to describe the reason.) Academically speaking the most honest answer would be something akin to, "don't know" since there are such a variety of opinions in modern theology. The only real consensus is that Jesus acted voluntarily and with love in order to restore something amiss with creation. Beyond that there are an infinite number of metaphors people use to describe it and conclusions drawn from it. The use of the word "sacrafice" isn't even agreed upon. There's a great deal of subtlety in the various positions, I feel I could be more helpful if you were more specific about what it is you wanted to know. I know I'm being a tad vague here but asking a theologian that question is like asking, "what is the meaning of everything?" It is a very good question though.

[Faith No More]

I hope this makes sense, the flood was a way in which God tried to get man set back on a right path but, as we know from the story that did not work either, God knew this would be the case but...

Wait...what? God killed nearly everyone on this planet to cleanse it knowing full well it wouldn't work?

[Jackalope]

Wait...what? God killed nearly everyone on this planet to cleanse it knowing full well it wouldn't work?

I feel compelled to ask what the point was... Revenge?

This to me represents one more epic fail for a supposedly omnipotent omniscient deity. Omni-* god creates everything, it doesn't turn out as he hoped (even though he would know full well it wouldn't), does a reboot and kills off damn near everything - which also doesn't turn out as he hoped.

This shit refutes itself. I can't even fathom how believers convince themselves that it makes sense.