Simple mental exercise to show the irrationality of the Christian God.

[KichigaiNeko]

Gods are imaginary

THE story CANNOT be true - it has an obvious flaw - the claim of Omniscience - that prevents the rest from being true

IF a god KNEW everything -then ONLY ONE OUTCOME could be possible in ALL instances - only what the god knew.

Obviously - YOU would be UNABLE to choose to do something the god DID NOT KNOW - so YOU are left - and the god is left - without ANY OPTIONS that could actually be chosen.

If a god cannot choose - it is NOT almighty.

However - the basis for the morality of religion is in the FREEDOM of choice claimed for the humans. IF we DO NOT HAVE freedom of choice - we have not chosen to do anything - and therefore are not responsible for OUR actions


So - either the claim of being ALmighty is false (AS that is falseall by itself as well) - OR the god is omniscient - and NOT almighty - it cannot be both.

Since there is established a direct IMPOSSIBLE contradiction - the story of the god CANNOT BE TRUE

Hi, sorry if there's already been debate about this and I'm late, but I didn't want to scroll through the entire thread and get caught up, so I'd just like to give my two cents on the subject

You do bring up a very good point, but this is how I see it. I do believe God is omniscient and almighty at the same time. God sees all possible scenarios and possibilities, and knows the outcome to each and every situation. Before the universe was even created, God knew what would happen, and God chose what would happen. Time is a manmade measurement that God does not abide by, and He is existing in all times, so all of eternity is in his hand. So He is not experiencing things as they happen, everything has already happened, and He determined when and how it would happen.

I hope that made sense! Feel free to reply and let me know what you think, what you disagree with, etc. I really would like to have an intelligent conversaion about this!

Hi beliver913

I don't recall seeing your introduction ...please feel free to go off to the Introduction thread and say hi...yeah pet peeve of mine.

Oh I hope I fixed your quote tags right..please "feel free" and bother to get to know our forum

[Boris Spacek]

Lemme see if I follow you...

THE story CANNOT be true - it has an obvious flaw - the claim of Omniscience - that prevents the rest from being true

Mmm, people often take issue with those two. Let's see where things get rocky for you.

IF a god KNEW everything -then ONLY ONE OUTCOME could be possible in ALL instances - only what the god knew.

Yup. But also, for all practical purposes, only one outcome is ever possible. Many choices may be at hand--many options before you stand--but only one outcome ever can occur. Even when cats are in a bizarre hybrid state of dead and alive at once, that itself is one outcome.

Obviously - YOU would be UNABLE to choose to do something the god DID NOT KNOW - so YOU are left - and the god is left - without ANY OPTIONS that could actually be chosen.

That's sound...except when you start confusing options with outcomes again. God wouldn't be confused about this either. He'd just see that you have n-many options at hand, but know that you're going to chose Xi, not any of X-i.

If a god cannot choose - it is NOT almighty.

Sorry, what's God got to choose? You're doing the choosing.

However - the basis for the morality of religion is in the FREEDOM of choice claimed for the humans. IF we DO NOT HAVE freedom of choice - we have not chosen to do anything - and therefore are not responsible for OUR actions

So - either the claim of being ALmighty is false (AS that is falseall by itself as well) - OR the god is omniscient - and NOT almighty - it cannot be both.

Since there is established a direct IMPOSSIBLE contradiction - the story of the god CANNOT BE TRUEI

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Ok, so basically, your argument is that if it can be known the outcome of our actions and decisions, we have no control over our actions and decisions. It doesn't matter if God knows them or not; this would work the same if I could read your mind. If you didn't know I was reading your mind and went about your life never in fear of having your future actions known, would you not be exercising freedom of choice? Now let's say you knew someone was predicting your every move. Maybe you'd intentionally try to behave erratically to deceive me, but I'd still have such a good idea of what you consider erratic that I could predict all the same. You'd be fully in control, and I'd be scrambling at my blackboard trying to determine your next thought based on a mound of information I've collected.

I agree that it makes one uneasy to think about how choice seems to disappear when you allow someone to observe your every thought leading up to an act and watch them predict it moments before you do it. Still, you are not controlling a cannonball when you watch it be fired out of a cannon and predict its point of impact. It just makes you good at math.

[Neo-Scholastic]

For lack of time, choosing not to debate with my Christian brothers on this one, and replying to OP. Your grandmother does not need to worry if you've accepted JC as YPL&S or not. The only people that end up in hell (a condition not a location) are the unrepentant wicked. Words and beliefs do not save, only the goodwill and the cultivation of virtue.

[Hunter9035]

That's like Grandma saying 'be good and you can have dessert' them you choose to lie and hit people and say its her fault you don't get dessert. (oh you mean grandma you don't love me!) Jesus' heart breaks when you live in sin and burn in Hell, He doesn't want that for you but He also doesn't want robot worshippers so you have the free will to send yourself there. But nice try!

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[Faith No More]

That's like Grandma saying 'be good and you can have dessert' them you choose to lie and hit people and say its her fault you don't get dessert.

Except that's not what it's like. It's more like grandma offers you dessert, but you can only have it if you say it's the best dessert ever. It's called coercion.

Jesus' heart breaks when you live in sin and burn in Hell, He doesn't want that for you but He also doesn't want robot worshippers so you have the free will to send yourself there. But nice try!

Next time you meet a kid who has been raped make sure to tell them that god could have stopped it, but he would rather have us worship him freely than being worshipping robots.

[Cyberman]

Actually it's rather more like grandma offers you dessert made out of rainbows and unicorn tears, but you can only have it if you truly believe it exists and renounce all other food. Further, if you even so much as think about any other kind of food you will not only not get the dessert but she'll throw you into her oven and roast you forever.

[Drich]

This thread is nothing more than a very simple logic that has crossed my mind many time. Thought I would share.

The bible says God is all loving.

That bible it doesn't say, (but you all seem to assume) is that God's "Loving attributes are the driving force of his Character.

The bible also says that 'sinners' and/or people who don't believe in Jesus as the Saviour will end up in hell.

This is Called Righteousness, and as this statement and the rest of scripture confirms God above all else is Righteous. This means Righteousness is His leading attribute, and not some post baby boomer sense of "love."

Simple exercise:

Think of the person in your life who is the most caring loving person you know. (For me it would be my Grandma who wouldn't hurt a fly).

An all loving God would be more loving than the person you picked.

If you are going to use this example first you provide book chapter and verse establishing "God's all lovingness."

Ask yourself. Would the person you have picked send people to hell for eternity because they didn't believe in them (or their son) or because you broke a rule that they made.

Here is another, Would an all loving God hang His own Son on a cross for your sin?
Why not simply forgive for the sake of "love?"
Perhaps God is not who you have been lead to believe.

If no, then why would an all loving God?

Then it must be concluded through scripture and your "reasoning" that an loving God to the exclusion of all other factors did not ever exist.

[Zen Badger]

This is Called Righteousness, and as this statement and the rest of scripture confirms God above all else is Righteous. This means Righteousness is His leading attribute, and not some post baby boomer sense of "love."

I think you mean self righteous, if so you are right.

God is a self righteous ass who applies a much higher standard to us than he does to himself.

[ThomM]

The bible says God is all loving.


Anyone who had read the Old Testament and then claims that the bible says the god is all loving does not know the meaning of the word "love"

It is easy to dismiss the god of the bible - for another reason though - the bible does say that "NOTHING is impossible with god" (Luke 1:37)

However - that CANNOT be true - the ability to do or be one thing DOES often prevent a being from being or doing the opposite. For example - can a god create a disease it cannot cure?

Can a god simultaneously be the largest and smallest object.?

However -= today WE are doing something with a power that the god of the bible cannot have as defined. THe god is defined as all knowing

Today - I am posting on this forum - something I had NO knowledge would even be possible 40 years ago. Others have the same power of doing something of which they had NO prior knowledge.

Tell me - what can an ALL knowing god do - that it had no prior knowledge of?

[Drich]

The bible says God is all loving.

Book Chapter and verse?

Anyone who had read the Old Testament and then claims that the bible says the god is all loving does not know the meaning of the word "love"

Please define.

It is easy to dismiss the god of the bible - for another reason though - the bible does say that "NOTHING is impossible with god" (Luke 1:37)

There are three words in the Orginal Greek that are simply translated into the word "NOTHING" in the english text.
οὐ (ou)
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

πᾶς (pas) 1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

The two words above describe (NOTHING) as you understand the word to mean, but there are three words here the last being:

ῥῆμα (rhēma)
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

b) speech, discourse

1) what one has said

c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)

1) an utterance

2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative

a) concerning some occurrence

2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of

a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration

b) so far as it is a matter of command

c) a matter of dispute, case at law
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...JV#conc/37

In context "The Phrase: Nothing impossiable with the God" refers to a promise or message made to an indivisual even though the full fillment of said promise/message looked to be impossiable.

what promise you ask?? All you have to do is put that quote back into it's orginal context to figure out what was not Specifically impossiable for God.

Luke1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”

The underlined portion is all one quote. As you will note this is where you butchered/cherry picked the material you used for your straw man.

However - that CANNOT be true - the ability to do or be one thing DOES often prevent a being from being or doing the opposite. For example - can a god create a disease it cannot cure?

Can a god simultaneously be the largest and smallest object.?

However -= today WE are doing something with a power that the god of the bible cannot have as defined. THe god is defined as all knowing

Today - I am posting on this forum - something I had NO knowledge would even be possible 40 years ago. Others have the same power of doing something of which they had NO prior knowledge.

Tell me - what can an ALL knowing god do - that it had no prior knowledge of?

Dismissed as fallacious reasoning, based on an incorrect repersentation of God, and the passage you used in luke 1.