Simple mental exercise to show the irrationality of the Christian God.

[Minimalist]

Book Chapter and verse?

John 1 8-17. Don't you even read your own bullshit?

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

And, btw, what a nauseating pile of shit that is!

[catfish]

Pretty easy one I always give out to Christians.

Is it moral to torture people forever? No? then that thing you worship is by definition, Not moral..

Really, I tell people who try that line of reasoning that the Bible never stated "forever" and that hell isn't real anyways...

---

This thread is nothing more than a very simple logic that has crossed my mind many time. Thought I would share.

The bible says God is all loving. The bible also says that 'sinners' and/or people who don't believe in Jesus as the saviour will end up in hell.

Try this logic.

The Bible says God is unknowable...
The Bible says myths will be secretly introduced. "Hades" is a myth...
The Bible says nothing about believeing in Jesus as the savior, Jesus's name is really Yeshua which litterally translated means "Yahweh is salvation"...
Romans 2 says that you don't need to be a believer...

[Lion IRC]

Book Chapter and verse?

John 1 8-17. ...

That verse you quoted happens to be 1 John 4 : 8-17


Here is John 1:8-17 (KJV)

"He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying,
This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

[BeeDeePee]

This thread is nothing more than a very simple logic that has crossed my mind many time. Thought I would share.

The bible says God is all loving. The bible also says that 'sinners' and/or people who don't believe in Jesus as the saviour will end up in hell.

Simple exercise:

Think of the person in your life who is the most caring loving person you know. (For me it would be my Grandma who wouldn't hurt a fly). An all loving God would be more loving than the person you picked.

Ask yourself. Would the person you have picked send people to hell for eternity because they didn't believe in them (or their son) or because you broke a rule that they made.

If no, then why would an all loving God?

Hi!
Firstly, I have to say that I agree with you. If God is really all loving and wants to save all people, then he can not punish those who doesn't love him.
But, this logic has one problem: you can use it only against the believing that heel is a real place where God will send you if you do not perform his will.
The point what I'm trying to make is that this is not the only option. That's the way how western theologians understand this biblical and christian doctrine. But if you better look at the christian history and patristic theology, you'll find that a lot of holy fathers of the Christian Church (especially those in Bizantium) didn't accept this teaching.

According to them, hell and paradise are not places where you'll go after death and the Last Judgement, but rather a "mental state". They are ways how you experience loving communion that God offers to you. To be more clear let me give you an example:

Imagine a three men living at the same house. We'll call them A, B, C. And what is very important is that person B loves person A, while person C doesn't. For B who loves person A that would be a joy, while for C a hell.
That's exactly how those fathers understood existence of hell and paradise. It's not something that God makes, but people by their rejecting God's love.

So, when they speak about the Last Judgement, they understand it as a personal relationship and not as a real judgement. Therefore, there won't be a judgement in full sense of the word. God won't look at our lifes to see if we are good and religios people. There wont be sending to anywhere.

After the Second Coming God will be "all in all". It means that everything will be permeated by divine energies. For those who accept God and want to live forever in loving communion with him, it will be a paradise. For those who hate God, it will be a hell.

[Cyberman]

I have no wish to be funny, as in typically atheistically rude and obnoxious, but any ideas when we might expect this Second Coming? Xtians have been expecting the Second Coming ever since the alleged First Coming.

[BeeDeePee]

I don't know. I'm not interested about that to be honest.

[Cyberman]

Fair enough. I only brought it up since you mentioned it.

[genkaus]

Hi!
Firstly, I have to say that I agree with you. If God is really all loving and wants to save all people, then he can not punish those who doesn't love him.
But, this logic has one problem: you can use it only against the believing that heel is a real place where God will send you if you do not perform his will.
The point what I'm trying to make is that this is not the only option. That's the way how western theologians understand this biblical and christian doctrine. But if you better look at the christian history and patristic theology, you'll find that a lot of holy fathers of the Christian Church (especially those in Bizantium) didn't accept this teaching.

According to them, hell and paradise are not places where you'll go after death and the Last Judgement, but rather a "mental state". They are ways how you experience loving communion that God offers to you. To be more clear let me give you an example:

Imagine a three men living at the same house. We'll call them A, B, C. And what is very important is that person B loves person A, while person C doesn't. For B who loves person A that would be a joy, while for C a hell.
That's exactly how those fathers understood existence of hell and paradise. It's not something that God makes, but people by their rejecting God's love.

So, when they speak about the Last Judgement, they understand it as a personal relationship and not as a real judgement. Therefore, there won't be a judgement in full sense of the word. God won't look at our lifes to see if we are good and religios people. There wont be sending to anywhere.

After the Second Coming God will be "all in all". It means that everything will be permeated by divine energies. For those who accept God and want to live forever in loving communion with him, it will be a paradise. For those who hate God, it will be a hell.

Why would that mental state be "hell", i.e. a state of suffering and torment? Maybe C doesn't give a shit about A and A's existence makes no difference to him. Maybe what C would really love is a chance to make A miserable and thinking of how to do that is a source of perpetual joy. In fact, the real hell would have been if C did love A and A didn't love back. Thus, if your god loves everyone and is forced to co-exist with those who are indifferent to him, then he must be in hell.

[Neo-Scholastic]

In fact, the real hell would have been if C did love A and A didn't love back. Thus, if your god loves everyone and is forced to co-exist with those who are indifferent to him, then he must be in hell.

Hi genkaus. So many different ideas about what hell is and isn't, who goes there, who doesn't...makes it all very confusing. I imagine it 's similar to an internet forum where people read posts only for the opportunity to outwit others and prove how superior they are. As opposed to a forum where people interact graciously with each other to learn and grow. (which is not a personal criticism of you by the way, since I always enjoyed our debates)

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, I'll try to play the devil's advocate as good as I can.

The bible says God is all loving.

I don't know where in the bible he says this, but okay, let's assume it does.

The bible also says that 'sinners' and/or people who don't believe in Jesus as the saviour will end up in hell.

Okay.

Think of the person in your life who is the most caring loving person you know. (For me it would be my Grandma who wouldn't hurt a fly). An all loving God would be more loving than the person you picked.

Ask yourself. Would the person you have picked send people to hell for eternity because they didn't believe in them (or their son) or because you broke a rule that they made.

It isn't really sending someone to hell because breaking a rule themselves...
As far as I'm concerned, generic christian theology maintains that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was to absolve mankind from the original sin of Adam and Eve.
Any other sin pales in comparison to the first and marking sin that was to be known as the fall of man.
Indeed, such a sin carried on by generations, and the generations to come, has to be absolved by such a great sacrifice, that it would be a great sin in itself to deny the person(which is another point of debate, the person of Christ, divine or not, God, God's son or whatever) that allows for such an absolvement.

Since you used your grandmother or any "loving person" as an analogy, I'll use this:
Say, your grandmother has been supportive to you since you were a baby. But suddenly, you turn on your grandmother, and you tell her that you don't love her anymore. You tell her that you do not see her as your grandmother, and she should not see you as her grandson, and never contact you again. You break off any contact and even call someone else that isn't your grandmother "grandmother".
Well, in such a case, would your grandmother continue to love you?
I'm not really sure, but I'm sure of one thing, that her attitude and thoughts about you would certainly change.
And since God's jealousy and vengefulness were made clear in the old testament, could you really expect God to forgive you for knowingly deny the sacrifice of his Son, and also deny his own being, and commit things that he told you not to do?

Under these circumstances, why would you oppose his decision of sending unbelievers who are aware of Christ's sacrifice to hell?

Of course, there also is the question of those who have no knowledge of Christ's existence. In that regard, Catholic dogma states that there also is a third plane of existence that is, in addition to heaven and hell, after death. Purgatory, where people who are not deemed to be as sinful or evil for hell, but also not qualified for heaven go to.
For example, purgatory is said to be full of righteous heathens, who were born before Christ, but lead lives that were in accordance with the Christian faith and tenets. Such people will have the chance of joining the ranks of the people that will go to heaven.