Democracy, religion, women and equality. Justice demands affirmative action.

[KichigaiNeko]

No! your attitude is pathetic, you have no idea how I fill about this subject, shame on you for judging.

What G-C...for me as a female questioning your judgment??

[Godscreated]

Perhaps instead of including demographics on applications for college or employment, only the necessary aspects of acceptance are included such as GPA, community service, etc.. It isn't right that the individual who is more intelligent doesn't get into a specific school or get the specific job simply because there is a quota to meet for the number of minorities which must be accepted.

No matter how you say it, affirmative action is positive discrimination. Equality can never be born from this mentality.

Then come up with a practical replcaement for the civil rights act that does not allow positive descrimination on the flip side of the coin.

When you come up with a good alternative to what is in place now, then I will lend an ear. Until then, I will oppose you. Allowing racism to exist causes economic strife upon minoroties.

This is a fact.

now, come up with a legitimate fix for this problem other than "just get rid of the legislation we have right now".

If you are truly an open minded intellectual, as you claim, then you will come up with something just as practical that fixes the problem NOW, and not something like "education" that may take several generations to become effective.

Love each other, do unto others as we do for ourselves.
You're right that racism and other "isms" cause minorities to fall down the economic ladder. Until people quit looking at each other like their different species then there will be no change. Government laws might hold discrimination back to a point but, it will never change minds. People on both sides of this problem must forgive before true progress can be made, both sides see that they have become neglected. Socialism "government forced actions" never cured this problem and in some countries things got worse. Until everyone comes to a point of respect for others that they have for themselves, equality will never happen. In Christianity when men learn to love the church as Christ loves the church and then love their wives as they love the church, things will be better in the christian world. So now what will the secular world offer as a solution. I will say that I do not expect this to happen in the christian church and that is a very bad thing, Christ will judge his church about this.

[Anomalocaris]

Strike the words "Christianity" and "Jesus" from the passage above, and you can almost pass for a respectable man's (and woman's) child. So you have it in your to be vastly better than god's child, god's child.

[reverendjeremiah]

Perhaps instead of including demographics on applications for college or employment, only the necessary aspects of acceptance are included such as GPA, community service, etc.. It isn't right that the individual who is more intelligent doesn't get into a specific school or get the specific job simply because there is a quota to meet for the number of minorities which must be accepted.

No matter how you say it, affirmative action is positive discrimination. Equality can never be born from this mentality.

Then come up with a practical replcaement for the civil rights act that does not allow positive descrimination on the flip side of the coin.

When you come up with a good alternative to what is in place now, then I will lend an ear. Until then, I will oppose you. Allowing racism to exist causes economic strife upon minoroties.

This is a fact.

now, come up with a legitimate fix for this problem other than "just get rid of the legislation we have right now".

If you are truly an open minded intellectual, as you claim, then you will come up with something just as practical that fixes the problem NOW, and not something like "education" that may take several generations to become effective.

Love each other, do unto others as we do for ourselves.
You're right that racism and other "isms" cause minorities to fall down the economic ladder. Until people quit looking at each other like their different species then there will be no change. Government laws might hold discrimination back to a point but, it will never change minds. People on both sides of this problem must forgive before true progress can be made, both sides see that they have become neglected. Socialism "government forced actions" never cured this problem and in some countries things got worse. Until everyone comes to a point of respect for others that they have for themselves, equality will never happen. In Christianity when men learn to love the church as Christ loves the church and then love their wives as they love the church, things will be better in the christian world. So now what will the secular world offer as a solution. I will say that I do not expect this to happen in the christian church and that is a very bad thing, Christ will judge his church about this.

GC, you started sounding really intelligent at first, then , as usual...you veered off course and crashed the car into the ditch.

Hitstorically speaking, those who are christian tended to be the most hateful and racist. Of course they were, verse, upon verse, upon verse of Jehovah demanding racial genocide, to not be equally yoked with non-believers, to actively seek out and kill witches and homosexuals, to stone your children to death if they refuse to worship Yahweh...examples...and examples galore.

As far as socialism, I ask that you do some more homework. Not all socialism is "government forced". there is such a thing as left libertarianism which merely disposes of the government, and that socialism would come about naturally without force.

Also, I must point out that 90% of the churches that are in my area are all segregated. You got your black churches here, your white churches there...all of the protestant churches in my area are segregated. The only INTEGRATED churches I have seen around here are the Catholic church, and that unitarian church WAAAAYYYYY out in Kitty Hawk NC.

[Godscreated]

Love each other, do unto others as we do for ourselves.
You're right that racism and other "isms" cause minorities to fall down the economic ladder. Until people quit looking at each other like their different species then there will be no change. Government laws might hold discrimination back to a point but, it will never change minds. People on both sides of this problem must forgive before true progress can be made, both sides see that they have become neglected. Socialism "government forced actions" never cured this problem and in some countries things got worse. Until everyone comes to a point of respect for others that they have for themselves, equality will never happen. In Christianity when men learn to love the church as Christ loves the church and then love their wives as they love the church, things will be better in the christian world. So now what will the secular world offer as a solution. I will say that I do not expect this to happen in the christian church and that is a very bad thing, Christ will judge his church about this.

GC, you started sounding really intelligent at first, then , as usual...you veered off course and crashed the car into the ditch.

Hitstorically speaking, those who are christian tended to be the most hateful and racist. Of course they were, verse, upon verse, upon verse of Jehovah demanding racial genocide, to not be equally yoked with non-believers, to actively seek out and kill witches and homosexuals, to stone your children to death if they refuse to worship Yahweh...examples...and examples galore.

As far as socialism, I ask that you do some more homework. Not all socialism is "government forced". there is such a thing as left libertarianism which merely disposes of the government, and that socialism would come about naturally without force.

Also, I must point out that 90% of the churches that are in my area are all segregated. You got your black churches here, your white churches there...all of the protestant churches in my area are segregated. The only INTEGRATED churches I have seen around here are the Catholic church, and that unitarian church WAAAAYYYYY out in Kitty Hawk NC.

Sounds a bit like what the Soviet's use to claim, use government to set up a socialistic society and then the government walks out of the picture and leave behind a perfect society, good luck with that. Human nature will never allow for this, social equality is not in the picture for those who have, they do not want to give up what they believe is theirs. Just as the Soviet leaders did not want to give up their power, neither will anyone who has it, besides the power they have is given to them by the rest of society.

[reverendjeremiah]

Love each other, do unto others as we do for ourselves.
You're right that racism and other "isms" cause minorities to fall down the economic ladder. Until people quit looking at each other like their different species then there will be no change. Government laws might hold discrimination back to a point but, it will never change minds. People on both sides of this problem must forgive before true progress can be made, both sides see that they have become neglected. Socialism "government forced actions" never cured this problem and in some countries things got worse. Until everyone comes to a point of respect for others that they have for themselves, equality will never happen. In Christianity when men learn to love the church as Christ loves the church and then love their wives as they love the church, things will be better in the christian world. So now what will the secular world offer as a solution. I will say that I do not expect this to happen in the christian church and that is a very bad thing, Christ will judge his church about this.

GC, you started sounding really intelligent at first, then , as usual...you veered off course and crashed the car into the ditch.

Hitstorically speaking, those who are christian tended to be the most hateful and racist. Of course they were, verse, upon verse, upon verse of Jehovah demanding racial genocide, to not be equally yoked with non-believers, to actively seek out and kill witches and homosexuals, to stone your children to death if they refuse to worship Yahweh...examples...and examples galore.

As far as socialism, I ask that you do some more homework. Not all socialism is "government forced". there is such a thing as left libertarianism which merely disposes of the government, and that socialism would come about naturally without force.

Also, I must point out that 90% of the churches that are in my area are all segregated. You got your black churches here, your white churches there...all of the protestant churches in my area are segregated. The only INTEGRATED churches I have seen around here are the Catholic church, and that unitarian church WAAAAYYYYY out in Kitty Hawk NC.

Sounds a bit like what the Soviet's use to claim, use government to set up a socialistic society and then the government walks out of the picture and leave behind a perfect society, good luck with that. Human nature will never allow for this, social equality is not in the picture for those who have, they do not want to give up what they believe is theirs. Just as the Soviet leaders did not want to give up their power, neither will anyone who has it, besides the power they have is given to them by the rest of society.

yup...its the only problem. The best way for it to work is to dump all of the govt right then and there with no moving towards it...you just jump right to it.

This basically will cause a revolution, something Im not so sure about. I would rather go in steps, but people are not going to want to give up their big houses and big bank accounts.

The socviets screwed up so many lib left societies I am unable to count them all. Some they corrupted from the inside, some they just flat out invaded.

[Godscreated]

Love each other, do unto others as we do for ourselves.
You're right that racism and other "isms" cause minorities to fall down the economic ladder. Until people quit looking at each other like their different species then there will be no change. Government laws might hold discrimination back to a point but, it will never change minds. People on both sides of this problem must forgive before true progress can be made, both sides see that they have become neglected. Socialism "government forced actions" never cured this problem and in some countries things got worse. Until everyone comes to a point of respect for others that they have for themselves, equality will never happen. In Christianity when men learn to love the church as Christ loves the church and then love their wives as they love the church, things will be better in the christian world. So now what will the secular world offer as a solution. I will say that I do not expect this to happen in the christian church and that is a very bad thing, Christ will judge his church about this.

GC, you started sounding really intelligent at first, then , as usual...you veered off course and crashed the car into the ditch.

Hitstorically speaking, those who are christian tended to be the most hateful and racist. Of course they were, verse, upon verse, upon verse of Jehovah demanding racial genocide, to not be equally yoked with non-believers, to actively seek out and kill witches and homosexuals, to stone your children to death if they refuse to worship Yahweh...examples...and examples galore.

As far as socialism, I ask that you do some more homework. Not all socialism is "government forced". there is such a thing as left libertarianism which merely disposes of the government, and that socialism would come about naturally without force.

Also, I must point out that 90% of the churches that are in my area are all segregated. You got your black churches here, your white churches there...all of the protestant churches in my area are segregated. The only INTEGRATED churches I have seen around here are the Catholic church, and that unitarian church WAAAAYYYYY out in Kitty Hawk NC.

Sounds a bit like what the Soviet's use to claim, use government to set up a socialistic society and then the government walks out of the picture and leave behind a perfect society, good luck with that. Human nature will never allow for this, social equality is not in the picture for those who have, they do not want to give up what they believe is theirs. Just as the Soviet leaders did not want to give up their power, neither will anyone who has it, besides the power they have is given to them by the rest of society.

yup...its the only problem. The best way for it to work is to dump all of the govt right then and there with no moving towards it...you just jump right to it.

This basically will cause a revolution, something Im not so sure about. I would rather go in steps, but people are not going to want to give up their big houses and big bank accounts.

The socviets screwed up so many lib left societies I am unable to count them all. Some they corrupted from the inside, some they just flat out invaded.

There are so many different opinions on socialism and how it should work that it never can, in a socialistic society opinions are out and that goes against human nature. There is no way to have a society that goes against human nature and it work unless force is used and even then we see how ineffective that can be with the changes in the Middle East.

[reverendjeremiah]

There are so many different opinions on socialism

True, but the two main thoughts on socialism that all others branch out from are thus: Authoritarian or libertarian. One tells everyone what to do, the other tries to allow for maximum freedom. So the soviets were what George Orwell called "Right wing socialists", because they were very authoritarian. an example of a non-authoritarian socialism would be, just for a quick example, a hippie commune. There are many others on both sides of the authoritarian argument.

some socialists name them differently, but not all:

Communist = authoritarian commune
Cooperative = non-authoritarian commune

and how it should work that it never can,

Not true either. China has been quite successful at socialism, yet they are authoritarian as hell, and they have now integrated what i consider some of the worst parts of capitalism as well. Northern Europe, on the other hand, keep slowly working their way towards a coopoerative system of anti-authoritarian likes. All countries have their moments of ups and downs.

in a socialistic society opinions are out and that goes against human nature.

It depends on the nature of the commune and the nature of the opinion.

Example: The commune that the followers of Jesus set up right after his crucifixion can easily be described as an authoritarian theocratic commune. All members had to sell their possessions and had to surrender the money to the church leaders. If they didnt, they were killed right on the spot. The bible says that God killed the people, or made them "give up the ghost". this could be translated however you like, but the fact is they were killed for trying to hold back some of their money from the commune. Their opinion on how to run a commune, regardless of wether god existed or not, did not succeede because we no longer see it today.

Another example would be the indiginous peoples of the Nordic lands called the "Sami". this commune started long before any meaningful borders of "Norway", "Denmark", etc... where ever created. They have petroglyphs dating back as far as 10,000 bc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

They have survived the bubonic plague, the Nazi's, the rise of capitalism, and they are still going strong. they have a very simple and sometimes revolving leadership, so they are very close to being anarcho-primitive in their political structure. In otherwords they are anti-authoritarian cooperatists.

There is no way to have a society that goes against human nature and it work unless force is used and even then we see how ineffective that can be with the changes in the Middle East.

I keep hearing that same argument again and again. That people are greedy and hateful, and therefore must have a greedy and hateful government.

Why not ask the Sami about that? They seem to have successfully snubbed the current idea of humanity and government, and they are still going strong.

[Anomalocaris]

There are so many different opinions on socialism and how it should work that it never can, in a socialistic society opinions are out and that goes against human nature. There is no way to have a society that goes against human nature and it work unless force is used and even then we see how ineffective that can be with the changes in the Middle East.

Bullshit. Human nature is such that they adopt to whatever system that seems to given them the best attainable mix of passeable livelihood and security.

[Darth]

Democracy, religion, women and equality. Justice demands affirmative action.

Democracy, Religion and Secularism all talks a great line of freedom and equality for all. Our Western democracies and Religions preach this wonderful line; while at the same time forcing our women to walk behind our men and denying women true equality. True democracy and religions are then a sham. We have no working model, political or religious with true equality. We all contribute to this hypocrisy.

Does not follow.

On Affirmative action. I'm conflicted on it. On one hand any form of discrimination, especially state sanctioned, annoys me. On the other, do the people benefiting from it not encounter negative discrimination? Did their ancestors (which would affect their current situation)?

Does the affirmative action not just counterbalance the discrimination?