Knowing everything and allowing evil

[Godscreated]

[Abracadabra]

If you're an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good being, why even create the universe? Why not just create Heaven with all the good souls to kiss your ass forever, and just forget about making the earth, all the evil people, and this ridiculous "test" system to determine where you end up for eternity? Especially since God is supposedly planning on destroying the entire universe some day anyway. It just doesn't make sense at all. That's what a more efficient, and truly all-good god would do and not worry about all the evil people.

I know, I know, God created Hell as a place to send Satan after he rebelled, but if I was all-knowing I wouldn't have created Satan in the first place, or else made him be all good like all the other angels.

[BEGIN UTTER STUPIDITY]

Well, not only that Mr. Doubting Thomas, but according to the Christians this supposedly "All-GOOD", just and fair God is going to condemn nice people like you to that eternal hell fire and punish you just for doubting that the utterly insane male-chauvinistic Hebrews speak for this God.

Shame on YOU!

How dare you doubt that an all-wise, all-intelligent, all-powerful, all-benevolent God would curse a serpent, remove it's arms and legs, and make it crawl on it's belly for the rest of it's days and eat dirt!

How dare you question such an action as being an all-wise solution to the problem. You are clearly a very evil person who needs to be eternally punished with no chance of parole. That'll teach you to never to doubt that the writings of a culture of ancient male-chauvinist pigs is the "Word of God"!

Of course, the 'lesson' you will learn from your sentence of eternal-imprisonment and torture won't ever do you, or anyone else, any good because there's no parole board where you'll be going.

Your doubting of God's wisdom is simply too evil and dangerous to ever allow you to roam free ever again. You might be foolish enough to actually allow a woman to speak her mind!

You could be threat in this God's heaven where women are not allowed to speak out without the express written permission of their husbands.

You're just too Evil Mr. Doubting Thomas. You'll have to go to the all-consuming hell fire. Sorry.

NO DOUBTING ALLOWED IN HEAVEN!

[/END UTTER STUPIDITY]

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

But if you are open to the possibility that this higher being may actually be an intimate part of your very own consciousness, (or vice versa) then we might actually make some progress.

'May' as in 'possible'? I'm a skeptic,of course I concede the possibility. At present I'm unable to believe it to be the case.I will gladly change my mind as soon on as I see some proof.

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


As promised,I checked your claim about quantum fields being based on metaphysics.. I did so because I have only high school physics and do not claim to understand quantum physics..

I post a couple of replies I got from posting your claim on two other forums, from people who,unlike me have a bit of physics.

I thought a quantum field was a tool to describe the infinite number of possible degrees of freedom any quantum mechanical system contains, and to describe interactions within that quantum mechanical system. Saying a quantum field exists is akin to saying e=mc2 exists, it is just a tool for understanding nature, and as such is a representation. It helps us to make predictions about quantum mechanical interactions, and try to understand them. Obviously the quantum mechanical world is thought to "exist", otherwise we couldn't make observations and predictions.

The NAG is sort of correct, but not for the reasons he thinks. He's talking about two different things.

Quantum fields exist, can be measured, and can be described mathematically with great precision. They are the foundation on which physics is built.

Humans cannot conceptualize the quantum world. Our concepts are therefore rather metaphysical in nature, because that is the best we can do. It is not the quantum field which is metaphysical, it is our concepts which are (sort of).

Just because our conceptualization is somewhat metaphysical, it does not mean that quantum fields don't exist, nor does it mean that the question of the existence of a god, (an entirely metaphysical concept) is a legitimate science question.

[Abracadabra]

Your understanding of the sacrifice of Christ is not correct, man did not sacrifice Christ, God the Father did, man murdered Christ, man had no intention of sacrificing Him all they wanted was to shut Him up, He was ruining the cozy life of the priest. Only the Father could have sacrificed Christ His Son, the Father was the one who was suffering because of Christ's sacrifice, man became the beneficiary of the sacrifice God made.

I'm sorry Godschild your responses are far to absurd to waste my time on.

Of course the "sacrifice" of Christ would have been God's going. But that actually makes matters far worse!

This means that this was God's PLANNED solution to his problems.

What kind of a supposedly all-wise couldn't come up with a better plan to save humanity than to have mortal men nail his son to a pole?

In fact, if it was God's planned solution to the problem from the get-go (which it would have had to have been) then mankind didn't even have any choice in the matter. They would have no choice but to nail Jesus to the pole just as this God had planned. That would have all been determined even before Jesus was born of a virgin.

It makes absolutely no sense at all that this was "God's Plan".

Moreover, who would God have been sacrificing his son to?

What was the whole deal with blood sacrifices in the first place? They started out early in the New Testament as something men needed to do to appease God in order to atone their sins. So now we have this God appeasing himself by having men nail his son to a pole?

That's sicker than sick!

The religion is so utterly foolish that it can't be made to make sense no matter how hard you try.

Judaism and Islam are stupid enough. Christianity its beyond stupid. It's utterly insane.

It truly isn't even worth talking about as a possible candidate for the behavior of a supposedly all-wise being. It's simply far too stupid.

It makes no sense that a God would "Sacrifice His Own Son" unto himself just so he can forgive people of their sins.

To be perfectly honest with you, IMHO, this religion is so utterly stupid that the greatest mystery associated with it is the mystery of how any sentient human being can be gullible enough to believe it.

[Welsh cake]

He is allowing you to choose your own path, now if it leads to eternal hell or eternal life

You get neither child. Everyone will die without exception. Every man is equal in death. We enter oblivion. Accept it.

[Abracadabra]

But if you are open to the possibility that this higher being may actually be an intimate part of your very own consciousness, (or vice versa) then we might actually make some progress.

'May' as in 'possible'? I'm a skeptic,of course I concede the possibility. At present I'm unable to believe it to be the case.I will gladly change my mind as soon on as is see some proof.

Well, for whatever it's worth, the quote you posted above was my response to Rhythm who was actually inquiring about what it might take to consider my spiritual views.

It's not my intent to try to convince anyone of my spiritual views if they are not interested. I have absolutely nothing against people who chose to believe that all of reality is of a secular nature. That's cool with me.

What I object to is when people try to imply that I'm stupid for having any spiritual beliefs at all. Or if they try to claim that science has completely ruled out any possible spiritual essence to reality. That simply isn't true and I'm not about to stand by and allow people to misrepresent science like that even.

As promised,I checked your claim about quantum fields being based on metaphysics.. I did so because I have only high school physics and do not claim to understand quantum physics..

I post a couple of replies I got from posting your claim on two other forums, from people who,unlike me have a bit of physics.

I'm both impressed and honored that you would give my views respect enough to actually follow up on that. Thank you for that respect.

I thought a quantum field was a tool to describe the infinite number of possible degrees of freedom any quantum mechanical system contains, and to describe interactions within that quantum mechanical system. Saying a quantum field exists is akin to saying e=mc2 exists, it is just a tool for understanding nature, and as such is a representation. It helps us to make predictions about quantum mechanical interactions, and try to understand them. Obviously the quantum mechanical world is thought to "exist", otherwise we couldn't make observations and predictions.

I agree with this gentleman completely on both counts.

Yes, from a pure mathematical perspective "quantum fields" are indeed nothing more than an abstract mathematical tool. I'm in total agreement with that on a mathematical level.

However, as this gentleman also acknowledges, from the standpoint of physics, physicists really have no choice but to "believe" that these fields do have some sort of real "existence". After all, in physics we talking about actual events that come out of these fields that we can measure and observe. Thus we have compelling reasons to believe that they have some "reality" of their own.

Yet, at the very same time, these "quantum fields" are completely undetectable in and of themselves. The only reason we have for believing that they exist is because detectable particles keep popping into existence from them.

Moreover, and far more importantly, these otherwise undetectable "quantum fields" apparently have specific and precise properties that "belong" to them. In other words, we only see certain kinds of particles popping into and out of existence. This implies that these otherwise undetectable fields must "contain" information. Otherwise, they couldn't have the properties that we abstractly assign to them and observe when they are excited.

Therefore, my "conclusion" in all of this is that apparently "information" can indeed exist in "fields" which are, for all intents and purposes, totally undetectable in a physical sense when not excited (i.e. when they aren't being excited they basically have the property of being "metaphysical" fields.

Does this prove that all metaphysical ideas must then also exist?

Of course not, but IMHO, surely it's sufficient grounds to justify a belief that other metaphysical concepts may also be possible.

The NAG is sort of correct, but not for the reasons he thinks. He's talking about two different things.

Quantum fields exist, can be measured, and can be described mathematically with great precision. They are the foundation on which physics is built.

Humans cannot conceptualize the quantum world. Our concepts are therefore rather metaphysical in nature, because that is the best we can do. It is not the quantum field which is metaphysical, it is our concepts which are (sort of).

Just because our conceptualization is somewhat metaphysical, it does not mean that quantum fields don't exist, nor does it mean that the question of the existence of a god, (an entirely metaphysical concept) is a legitimate science question.

Well, this gentleman seems to take a similar stance to the last, and I have no real problem with anything that he's saying here either.

To begin I never claimed that the question of the existence of God is a legitimate science question. It may or may not be. It's kind of like String Theory in that sense. If someone can ever come up with a concept of "God" that can be observational determined via scientific experiment then it would certainly become a question of science. I'm not offering any such possible experiment or prediction that could be tested by our current scientific methods. Thus I am not even suggesting that God is a legitimate science question.

I'm sure that I had never proposed anything along those lines.

My only position is that "My own personal spiritual concepts and ideas on spirituality cannot be ruled out by current scientific inquiry" And therefore they remain within the realm of plausibility.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm not trying to "prove'" to anyone that God exists. (don't take my signature line too seriously, it's really just an artistic display of my own spiritual beliefs in the plausibility of spirituality, not meant to be ramming the idea down anyone's throat)

I fully respect secular atheists who believe that reality is entire a random chance purely secular event. That's certainly a plausible situation as well.

However, I think it's pretty ignorant of them to treat me like as if I'm a complete nut case just because I'm drawn to other plausible conclusions.

All I ask is for mutual respect. I'm not asking anyone to believe like me. I'm not claiming that some angry God will hate them if they fail to believe in him.

I'm just a person who believes that a spiritual reality is just as plausible as a secular reality. And I confess that intuitively I'm convinced that it is spiritual. Logically I can't prove it to you, or even to myself. But I have never claimed to be able to do that.

But don't try to tell me that science has fully determined that a spiritual reality has been completely ruled out as being utterly impossible and implausible.

That's simple not true. And I'm not about to stand by silently whilst people make such outrageous unscientific claims and claim that it has scientific merit. That's just not the case at all.

Science has not proven that the universe is purely secular and cannot be spiritual. That's simply not true. It's false information. being spread by secular atheists as if its some sort of scientific "fact".

That's just a false impression of what science can actually tell us at this current time. It's basically a lie to put it bluntly. Yet some secular atheists are 'teaching' people to believe it as if it's a 'scientific fact'.

And that's what I object to.

Science has not confirmed or proven that secular atheism is the only possible explanation for reality. That's simply hogwash.

[RW_9]

The problem of evil has reared its beautiful head for centuries, and christian apologists have yet to respond with sufficient replies. Some have actually tried to lay out a theological system explaining it all, which is far better than most, but it always degrades into absurdism and the nonsensical. There really is no purpose in discussing the problem of evil and omniscience until apologists can start responding with new explanations. The only way that the problem of evil, from a rational standpoint, can even come close to being handled is by those christians who do not believe in the omnipotence or omniscience of their god. It all still falls short, of course, but at least then the discussion gets interesting. All of the traditional apologetics regarding the subject have fallen short of even the simplest questions from centuries ago.

[Abracadabra]

If only a few choose the Kingdom of God and the rest choose an eternal hell that is not God's fault. God sacrificed His son so that everyone who chooses so can have eternal life in His heaven.
God gives you the right to think this way, He is allowing you to choose your own path, now if it leads to eternal hell or eternal life, well that choice remains in your hands, He will never force you to choose. God is perfect, his justice is perfect and He is perfectly willing to accept you and anyone else into His kingdom as long as you believe in the sacrifice Christ made for us all, those who choose will have their names washed from those nails that held Christ to the cross.
I face the realization of the perfect God who has given us the perfect escape from an eternal hell, Jesus Christ.

You're just offering more proof of why the religion must necessarily be false.

To simply not believe that a bunch of ancient ignorant male-chauvinistic pigs speak for an all-wise God, cannot in any possible justifiable or righteous way constitute a FREE WILL CHOICE to chose eternal damnation over a supposed eternal life in paradise.

So you've just proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the religion can't possible be true. Because according to you (and these fables too), to not believe that Jesus was "The Christ" is sufficient grounds to be sent to hell.

Yet to not believe in these fables would not in anyway constitute a FREE WILL KNOWING CHOICE to chose eternal damnation.

Therefore, you've proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that this religion is necessarily false and can only be the superstitious ramblings of idiots.

[tackattack]

[Welsh cake]

I believe it is a choice, you've chosen it in your previous post. You would have absolute solitude forever than submit to an objectively absolute good God.

You can bend over backwards to the bastard who wished he never created you during Noah's time. I'd rather be alone than suffer such an abusive being if it exists.

But I digress, it isn't about the carrot, it's about the road we travel.

Then you must ask yourself, is this trip really necessary?