I am a pro-life atheist

[passionatefool]

Sperm contains the DNA of the male; they are his cells, they are his life. The egg contains the DNA of the female, it is her cell, it is her life.

Our entire bodies are made up of unconscious cells, so unless you can point me to a single cell in our body that has consciousness, your argument falls apart completely. Unless you are in favour of pardoning all murderers, since all they ever did was kill a bunch of unconscious cells, and therefore did nothing morally wrong.

In the case of abortion, what is best for them, and what is best for the baby come into conflict, hence my opposition.

Good job, you know sperms and egg cells carry DNA, yes they are his/her cells and they are living but no they are not their life.

Do you read or comprehend what I say? It is quite simple and you failing to understand it is just fascinating. They do not have consciousness because, unlike fully developed human, they are lacking a brain and nervous system. Your testicals do not have consciouness, but you do. A clumps of joint sperm and egg cells have just as much of a consciouness as your testicals or your tonsil. My arguement stays perfectly intact.

Comparing abortion to commiting murdering is just pathetic and the weakest of argument, and honestly it doesn't even have much reasoning validity behind it other than just a nasty way of insulting someone.

And I will continue to say what I had constantly been saying, Most people whether pro-choice or pro-life, in the end are all pro-life. I, along with most pro-choice people believe women should have the right to their own body and what they decide to do is completely up to them and nobody else business, especially government, but we do not run around supporting abortion, we support their right to it if necessary.

It is just completely stupid and childish that people think the way to prevent abortion is to make it illegal. Making it illegal just simply mean now abortion is illegal and people will be having illegal abortion without the medical care they need. If we want to reduce the rate of abortion, we focus on improving our crappy sex education, encourage protection, offer free counselling or social services to aide them. But we give them that rights to abortion if it is what they choose to do, and we provide them with all the medical assistance they need to have a safe and sanitary abortion.

It is ironic that republicans believe abortion is inhumane yet they focus on weakening sex education, illegalizing birth control and Plan B, take away funds on social services/aides, and let people starve to death.

[SleepingDemon]

The way I see it, we abort people all the time. We abort the poor, we abort criminals, we abort citizens in countries we invade, we abort people in third world countries, the list goes on and on.

I'm very much pro contraceptive, and I do not believe that abortion should be a form of contraceptive, however I do believe that there are people who should not have children. If a 13 year old girl makes a single mistake and becomes pregnant, then her life changes forever. I believe that in these circumstances, along with rape and incest, abortion should be an option. If abortion is an option under any circumstances, it should be legal. I also agree with the population control argument.

On a more personal note, my wife and I had our first child last August. When Autumn, my wife was 4 months pregnant, we had a test done that would screen for mental retardation. We then made a list of birth defects for which if our child tested positive, we would have terminated.

I know for anyone who has a family member that is mentally handicapped, that seems rather callous. Allow me to explain. A child born with severe mental retardation will not have a normal life. More than likely, they will be the victim of violence and bullying during school, and will be completely dependant upon the parents for the duration of their often short life. This is by no means ironclad, and I'm sure some grow up without enduring this. But in my experience that has not been the case. Handicapped children are mercilessly ridiculed throughout their time in school, and it just seems cruel to condemn a child to that. So we would have aborted, and it would have haunted me for all of my life. But that would have been my burden, and not my child's. I would not want my child to suffer because I lacked the courage to approach the situation rationally and make a decision based upon what was best for them, not myself. It isn't a dig at anyone who made the opposite choice, just my own feelings on the matter.

Anyway again, I feel that if abortion should be a viable option under any circumstances, it should remain an option across the board.

[Undeceived]

So you're saying yes, it's human life, but as long as that life is within your physical confines you can do with it whatever you please? If I put a midget in my stomach would I automatically have supreme power over he/she? You'll say I had the choice to put it there, but so does the woman.

It is the womans umbilical cord...she can cut it for any reason...ANY REASON.

You’re working on your third-story roof with a friend. He slips but just catches hold of an electrical cord. He’s hanging thirty feet over a concrete sidewalk. Do you have the right to cut the cord? It’s yours.

[Erinome]

The inconsistency I most notice with liberals is that they support abortion but oppose the death penalty. To her credit, Shell B is actually the anomaly on that issue, since she both supports abortion, and (to an extent) supports the death penalty. She's the only person I've come across who actually seems to care about being consistent; I wish there were more of you like that.

I'm pro-choice, and in favor of the death penalty as well. (both to an extent)

Wish granted.

[NoMoreFaith]

This is obviously a contentious issue for people, and for the sake of forum civility, I'm not going to make any public statements on it again.

Unfortunate. I was looking forward to your answers to direct civil questions. Your prerogative not to do so.

You’re working on your third-story roof with a friend. He slips but just catches hold of an electrical cord. He’s hanging thirty feet over a concrete sidewalk. Do you have the right to cut the cord? It’s yours.

The analogy has faults. In order to be true we must assert that a zygote = adult human being or at least is has equivalent status.

Which is a bit of a shame, I was looking forward to cryogenically freezing zygotes with my wife and claiming them as dependent children for tax purposes. The best laid plans.....

In moral terms we commit harm to an individual. While the harm principle is not a foolproof moral method, I do believe it is the most useful option, and most relevant to the moral problem of abortion.

You cannot in any real sense do harm to a zygote beyond removing potentiality. Cutting the cord to your friend however commits harm to his person (important distinction right there). He has thoughts and feelings, and is a person in every sense of the word.

Its tempting to look at the removal of potentiality as doing great harm, however this is open to an absolute boatload of valid reductio ad absurdium.

"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate"

I see no reason to go in depth as to the difference between an electrical cord and umbilical cord but I will if you want.

[Violet]

An amusing (albeit incomplete) quote from a movie I watched last night (The Birdcage):

Albert: [On murdering women attempting to get abortions] Oh, I know what you're going to say. "If you kill the mother, the fetus dies, too." But the fetus is going to be aborted anyway, so why not let it go down with the ship?

Val: I assure you, Mother is just following a train of thought to a logical, yet absurd conclusion... much in the same way Jonathan Swift did when he suggested the Irish feed their babies to the rich.

[downbeatplumb]

The inconsistency I most notice with liberals is that they support abortion but oppose the death penalty. To her credit, Shell B is actually the anomaly on that issue, since she both supports abortion, and (to an extent) supports the death penalty. She's the only person I've come across who actually seems to care about being consistent; I wish there were more of you like that.

I'm pro-choice, and in favor of the death penalty as well. (both to an extent)

Wish granted.

Me too. Although I would probably only use the death penalty when they were ultra sure of guilt. They found heads in Geoffrey Dahmers fridge. Should've killed the mother fucker.

[The Grand Nudger]

You’re working on your third-story roof with a friend. He slips but just catches hold of an electrical cord. He’s hanging thirty feet over a concrete sidewalk. Do you have the right to cut the cord? It’s yours.

The next time I'm working on a roof and a fetus falls off the edge, catches itself on an electrical cord, and I'm standing there holding the other end...I'll remember your objection.

[Violet]

Whilst I would like to continue discussing this with people, various comments made in this thread and others have left a nasty taste in my mouth. I don't appreciate being lied about in a public forum, especially when the person doing so says it is I who should be held to a higher standard, and claims I "ran" from a debate with him (as if that even counts as something against me; people turn down debates all the time).

* Violet gives Tiberius a hug.

This is obviously a contentious issue for people, and for the sake of forum civility, I'm not going to make any public statements on it again. If you wish to ask questions / discuss this with me in private, please send me a PM.

Bleh, that's no fun. If people are getting out of hand, bring it up to the rest of the staff and they might well agree that it's out of hand, and possibly reprimand

Forum civility be damned... it'll right itself, always does. One pissed-off glance from Summer's usually enough

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You’re working on your third-story roof with a friend. He slips but just catches hold of an electrical cord. He’s hanging thirty feet over a concrete sidewalk. Do you have the right to cut the cord? It’s yours.

By chance... do you eat?

[Whateverist]

I'm pro-choice, and in favor of the death penalty as well. (both to an extent)

Wish granted.

Me too. Although I would probably only use the death penalty when they were ultra sure of guilt. They found heads in Geoffrey Dahmers fridge. Should've killed the mother fucker.

Me three .. in principle but I'm against death penalty in practice in the US because I don't trust our legal system to get it right consistently enough to suit me.