The burden of proof; who is it on?

[The Grand Nudger]

Absolutely, after people have done the actual work of enriching our knowledge of the world around us someone will always jump up to say the bible already knew this or that. Strangely, they never tell us in advance.

[Doubting Thomas]

Isn't it always convenient that when people see angels nobody else happens to notice them?

And what about all the people who fall to their deaths? Where were the angels then? It always seems to be a "I must be special!" attitude they have to have been saved from death by an angel, because people die from falls (or other causes) all the time without angelic intervention.

[thesummerqueen]

Could have just been a random pretty climber and they were in a portion no one else was in? When I was on the more difficult of the hiking trails, there were several lone people (I assume because only some of us were crazy that day) and a few of them were pretty hot (goddamn my tendency to appear self-sufficient and not like a damsel in distress. ) If the dude just disappeared afterwards, he could have thought "he was an angel!" just because his brain is geared that way.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Your devout Christian friend is being unreasonable. First he is asking critics to refute his interpretation of the bible without telling them what it is. You cannot respond to claims if you do not know what they are. Second, which texts are you being asked to refute? Does he claim that no parts of the current traditional canon have been redacted? What about texts excluded from the canon like the Book of Enoch or countless Gnostic texts? Is he arguing for a perfect original text from which variants derive? I agree with you that the language used in “the bible” reflects the perspective of the time in which each part was written. If he believes the bible refers to later scientific discoveries, then ask him what new scientific discovery does it predict.

[Tobie]

The burden of proof is definitely on the party making a claim.

Your friend's perceived saviour is completely irrelevant. Something that is unprovable by any means always is.

[Creed of Heresy]

Holy fuck [no pun intended] that was a lot of replies, hahaha. Lemme respond in order.

Rhythm: While it is possible he could just be 'normally crazy,' it's the only thing he really displays as a tendency. That and his tendencies towards fantasy, artistic endeavors, and the like. I dunno. Like I said, I'll probably needle him a bit, see if I can work out a bit of his history. He never discusses his parents...maybe I should start there.

I kinda take the Dr. House approach with people; everyone is a puzzle, and I tend to get a bit obsessive about solving them, so long as they intrigue me enough to be worth my time. Friends are usually the ones who bear the brunt of this. Most of them don't mind. Mostly.

I think South Park did an excellent job of spoofing the Christian viewpoint of Christ and their "relationship" with him with their episode, Christian Rock Hard. "I wanna get on my knees and pleasure Jesus, I wanna feel his warm salvation all over my face..."

Voltair: First off; your name is fucking awesome. Second: I hadn't considered using Carl Sagan's point there. I usually try to make my arguments and points on my own without borrowing from others...but, sometimes, especially when faced with such childish stubbornness, you must turn to a greater mind to more eloquently nail the point home. I'll have to bring that up next time me and him discuss this topic.

Doubting Thomas: VERY convenient. In fact...you might say hilariously so. You'd think that an angel would, at least for a moment, let himself be known a bit more grandly, you know? Sprout wings, wink at the small group gathered, ascend in a blaze of light to the heavens. It wouldn't be very overt since it'd be only to a small group of people who are complete strangers but their story would spark a tidal wave of faith, since under scrutiny these absolute strangers just so happened to see an angel save someone and then ascend into heaven. Given the whole "plague of unbelief" you'd think god would be more willing to stoke the flames of faith a little bit. You know...if he were REAL... But no, we get these hilariously miniscule specks of things that cannot be confirmed by anyone else. VERY...VERY convenient.

Summerqueen: Well his brain definitely seems to be geared incorrectly somewhere. It sounds a bit like a stereotypical "angel" description, though, one out of fantasy, with the flowing golden hair and ice-blue eyes and all that. ...Hey, maybe it was an Aryan angel.

Also; I learned some rock-climbing from my brother [who is a Ranger; rock climbing techniques are drilled into them on the fifth week, I think it is], and the idea of someone falling 30 feet...I dunno. That height seems a little too convenient. Not bragging but I've got some decent build on me. My friend...does not. He's a skinny fucker. REALLY skinny. 30 feet is largely considered to be just within the "you're gonna die if you fall" range of heights. 30 feet is also not a height I can picture him climbing to. Starting to think this story of his is outright fabricated through and through.

ChadWooters: I actually did bring this up to him when I had to cease his circular logic spree. It worked pretty damn well at getting him to start floundering like a beached fish.