Old Testament & Christian Morality

[Greeny]

Hi guys,

It seems whenever I present some typical disgusting law from the Old Testament (rape, slaves, etc.) to a Christian, they disregard it because it is Old Testament.

What justifies Christians to disregard the Old Testament? If Jesus absolved the laws commanded to the Israelites and replaced them with faith, and no real laws were handed down in the New Testament, where do these moderate Christians get their so called Objective Morality from?

I'm always stumped by this argument and would appreciate a thoughtful answer from both Christians and non-Christians.

Thanks!
Greeny

[Forsaken]

They have said it...don't take the evil in the bible out of context. It was only meant for Israelites. That does not, however, stop them from taking Genesis literally.

[Greeny]

They have said it...don't take the evil in the bible out of context. It was only meant for Israelites. That does not, however, stop them from taking Genesis literally.

Yet I am then met with arguments that atheists have no strict moral guidelines and are evil baby eaters. So how can they argue for strict morality when Jesus only gave vague examples on how to behave? The NT doesn't deny the right for a mother to marry her son or an uncle to marry his neice, would that be OK by God for two non-Israelite, modern day Christians? Where is this Objective Morality they keep telling me about?

[Anomalocaris]

What justifies Christians to disregard the Old Testament? If Jesus absolved the laws commanded to the Israelites and replaced them with faith, and no real laws were handed down in the New Testament, where do these moderate Christians get their so called Objective Morality from?

Like everyone else, christiansl get their morality from themselves. The main difference is christian belong to a sect whose inner moral is so shabby that it seems even to the christians themselves that a false totum in the form of higher authority is needed to give it weight.

[Greeny]

What justifies Christians to disregard the Old Testament? If Jesus absolved the laws commanded to the Israelites and replaced them with faith, and no real laws were handed down in the New Testament, where do these moderate Christians get their so called Objective Morality from?

Like everyone else, christiansl get their morality from themselves. The main difference is christian belong to a sect whose inner moral is so shabby that it seems even to the christians themselves that a false totum in the form of higher authority is needed to give it weight.

So these Christians don't even think they get their "morality" from what's written? They think they get it from the sole belief in God? Well, that's disappointing. The hypocrisy of it...

[mediamogul]

Hi guys,

It seems whenever I present some typical disgusting law from the Old Testament (rape, slaves, etc.) to a Christian, they disregard it because it is Old Testament.

What justifies Christians to disregard the Old Testament? If Jesus absolved the laws commanded to the Israelites and replaced them with faith, and no real laws were handed down in the New Testament, where do these moderate Christians get their so called Objective Morality from?

I'm always stumped by this argument and would appreciate a thoughtful answer from both Christians and non-Christians.

Thanks!
Greeny

You are letting them get away with that far too easy. It is their book. Hold them to it. If they believe that the bible is fact then they believe that god murdered children, condoned rape, incest and atrocity, and threw a temper tantrum an drowned everyone in the world save for about 8 people. Just because god was "born again" in a gentler less iminent way in the new testament doesn't mean that the OT doesn't exist. Not to mention that Christians quote it constantly as though it was universal law. Don't let them get away with it. Jesus quotes the old testament in the new testament. All the prophesies that supposedly make him the messiah are outlined in the old testament and the writers of the new testament wrote the new testament to make it fit. One doesn't stand without the other.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

. That does not, however, stop them from taking Genesis literally.

OR other aspects of the OT which suit them Eg rejecting homosexuality (Leviticus 18.22)

Living Bible: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"
New Living Translation: "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

The subject is not mentioned the NT

Paul de-Jewified what was a purely Jewish sect,to allow Gentiles to join. He did that by declaring that almost all of the law of Moses was redundant. There are actually 613 commandments,not 10.

Paul did this even though Jesus admonished his followers to keep the law,Matthew 5;17-19

•
17
Do not think that I have cometo annul the Law and the Prophets. Ihave not come to annul them but tofulfill them.
18
I tell you this: as longas heaven and earth last, not thesmallest letter or dot in the Law willchange until all is fulfilled.
19
So then, whoever breaks theleast important of these command-ments, and teaches others to do thesame, will be the least in the king-dom of heaven. On the other hand,whoever obeys them, and teachesothers to do the same, will be greatin the kingdom of heaven.

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

NT on slavery; typically,your Christian friends have not read their own holy book. The NT actually supports slavery,in MANY passages..

Just a few :

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:"
Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm


The above took me less than a minute to Google.

[Drich]

Hi guys,

It seems whenever I present some typical disgusting law from the Old Testament (rape, slaves, etc.) to a Christian, they disregard it because it is Old Testament.

What justifies Christians to disregard the Old Testament? If Jesus absolved the laws commanded to the Israelites and replaced them with faith, and no real laws were handed down in the New Testament, where do these moderate Christians get their so called Objective Morality from?

I'm always stumped by this argument and would appreciate a thoughtful answer from both Christians and non-Christians.

Thanks!
Greeny

This is a really good question!

The OT law can be divided into 3 categories. It starts with the ceremonial law of the Jews. This dictates religious ceremony, holy day observances temple practices, Priest attire, temple lay out, sacrifices etc..
Then you have the Social law. This includes the dietary laws, living arrangements, gender roles, clothing, Slavery, money lending and the like, finally we have the Moral law. This is the only segment that sorta carries over. This is more 10 commandment stuff plus or minus a command.

I say sort carries because in Christianity we have been freed from all of the law as a way to obtain Righteousness (the right to be with God) Righteousness ceased becoming an obtainable objective when Christ "completed the Law." there by make it impossible for anyone to earn their way into heaven by their deeds and efforts. Ex: "For you have heard it said you shall not Murder, but I tell you the truth anyone who hates His brother is guilty of this sin."

That said the "moral Law" is what governs the life of the christian not as a way to earn righteousness before God, but as a thank you for the Gift of atonement/righteousness we have received.

there is alittle more to it but I believe this answers you basic question.

[Minimalist]

What justifies Christians to disregard the Old Testament?

Xtians are cherry-picking assholes....as exemplified right above.

Their boy, jesus supposedly said:

(Verse 17) 'Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.
(Verse 18) For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
(Verse 19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:17-19 - NKJV).

Xtian assholes think that means working on the sabbath and eating pork rinds is okay but queers should be killed.

Essentially, they are full of shit.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Unfortunately this a very difficult area to discern OT commands that are eternal versus those that have limited application. For example, God commanded Noah to build the ark, but that doesn't mean every believer is supposed to make a boat. The Laws of Noah apply to all of humanity, Jew and Gentile alike, but the Laws of Moses were set forth to govern the ancient Israelite theocracy. Leviticus and Deuteronomy nevertheless remain instructive in their inner meaning. That is why Jesus can say, the neither the Law nor the Prophets will pass away.

Part of Torah study goes beyond extracting hard and fast rules, but to cultivate a state of mind able to receive the inner spiritual meaning of the text. An Orthodox Jew will attend very closely to both the natural and spiritual meaning while a Swedenborg student would seek primarily the inner meaning.

Like everything else the text is deeper than the people who read it. I for one have been studying for many years and continue to get fresh insights and shades of meaning, things I had overlooked before. So what I'm saying is that ultimately it's not what you pull out of it so much as what it brings out in you.