JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

[FallentoReason]

Ron Wyatt claimed he discovered the blood of Jesus

The site of where the cross supposedly was is inside a shrine now. His site is some place in the open.. someone's got it wrong.

the face of Jesus was discovered on a Shroud

Forgery. It was made some centuries later.

wouldn't the bible count I mean there are 365 prophecies of Jesus recorded in the Old Testament

Explain why Luke had to invent a census for the prophecy of the birthplace to be accomplished. That's only the beginning of how flawed your argument is.

[NoMoreFaith]

Ron Wyatt claimed he discovered the blood of Jesus, the face of Jesus was discovered on a Shroud, wouldn't the bible count I mean there are 365 prophecies of Jesus recorded in the Old Testament.

Evidence he mysteriously then lost when challenged to provide a sample to scientists. All we have is his claims.
Even fundamentalists don't take him seriously.

You know you're in trouble when you claim evidence of noahs ark, the ark of the covenant, the site of the parting of the red sea AND the blood of jesus and fundamentalists don't believe you.

Ron Wyatt claims to have found it all... yet provides none of it for examination. He's a massive fraudster.

The shroud was a proven forgery about 20 years ago.

Also, no, the prophecies of the old testament are not evidence.
I'm pretty sure any jewish believer can set you right on the biblical reasons for that. It comes down to your belief not fact there.

[lullaby]

Ron Wyatt claimed he discovered the blood of Jesus, the face of Jesus was discovered on a Shroud, wouldn't the bible count I mean there are 365 prophecies of Jesus recorded in the Old Testament.

Evidence he mysteriously then lost when challenged to provide a sample to scientists. All we have is his claims.
Even fundamentalists don't take him seriously.

You know you're in trouble when you claim evidence of noahs ark, the ark of the covenant, the site of the parting of the red sea AND the blood of jesus and fundamentalists don't believe you.

Ron Wyatt claims to have found it all... yet provides none of it for examination. He's a massive fraudster.

The shroud was a proven forgery about 20 years ago.

Also, no, the prophecies of the old testament are not evidence.
I'm pretty sure any jewish believer can set you right on the biblical reasons for that. It comes down to your belief not fact there.

What about out of body experiences of people visiting Heaven and Hell.

When I was at church I took my friend with me and the pastor began talking about his family and personal issues yet neither knew each other. Later he said they were all true. A lady did this to me also and it was true. Supernaturalism cannot de denied when you are a living witness.

[GreatArye]

GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)

Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews  from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.

THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)

Thallus' explanation  of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the  darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a  solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. 

CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.)

He went to great lengths to disprove the divinity of Jesus yet never denied His actual existence.

Then we have the account of Jesus Christ in The Bible!

The Bible is a collection of 66 books (39 Old Testament, 27 New Testament) written over a period of 1500 years by approximately 40 different authors about creation, history, prophecy and Gods plan for all of creation. 

This fact is a miracle ALL by itself! 

How can 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years write a collection of work that doesn't contradict itself??

This line of reasoning is fallacious and I imagine being ripped to shreds once I am done here. A miracle you say? Well if these books were written in the same geographical area that was obsessed of preserving their own culture and identity, then I expect at least some sense of unity regardless of the time span.

An account of 66 books? First, you are not acknowledging the apocrypha used by the Catholics and the book of Enoch in the Ethiopian church and I have no doubt there are other churches who pick and choose what books to read. The point? The 66-book compilation, most are familiar with was selected artificially and not (super)naturrally. If a group of church fathers started reading Christian literature (including Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Mary, Acts of Paul, the Didache etc) and only picked the ones they liked, then the collection of the bible is nothing extraordinary. Yet this is the case (Council of Carthage).

Lastly, the bible is not unified, from the first pages of Hebrew scripture we see conflicting accounts of creation written from a typical Judean and a priest independently to the last pages of Revelation, where the image of Jesus in the Gospels (itself conflicting) lies in tension with the Jesus in Revelation, and also in tension with Jesus in the Pauline and Deutero-Pauline letters.

[Tiberius]

Supernaturalism cannot de denied when you are a living witness.

Yes it can. We are all susceptible to seeing things that aren't there, or connecting things together which are entirely unrelated. It's the reason why astrology paints such a good picture of people; the statements are so generic they could apply to anyone, and people ignore the ones that do not match them (since they want to believe it works).

[NoMoreFaith]

What about out of body experiences of people visiting Heaven and Hell.

Wooosh, unsupported claims debunked and I almost broke my neck at the subject change.

Do you not find it curious that NDE's are based upon the personal experience of those who have them? No knowledge is imparted beyond what could have reasonably been inferred or heard previously.
The experience of an NDE is peculiar to your geographic location and you own beliefs, Muslims see Mohammed, Christians see Jesus, etc etc etc etc

When I was at church I took my friend with me and the pastor began talking about his family and personal issues yet neither knew each other. Later he said they were all true. A lady did this to me also and it was true. Supernaturalism cannot de denied when you are a living witness.

"A lady did it to me also and it was TRUE".

Wow, how can you argue with such a detailed account! I mean look at all the data you've presented.

Spirit mediums have spent centuries performing the cold reading con, it's hardly inspiring from such sketchy details what on earth your claim of supernaturalism actually is here that defies more likely explanations such as unknown prior knowledge, cold reading tricks etc etc.

Secondly, yes, Supernaturalism CAN be denied when you are a living witness.
Otherwise, every bum who sees as a UFO must be believed, every psychic actually talks to the dead, every claim to being healed by God (any God including vishnu and thor).

To quote David Hume;

A miracle is violation of the laws of nature; and as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact, is as entire as any argument from experience can possibly be imagined.

In short, your experience of what you perceive to be supernatural, is made improbable by the sheer weight of standard experience.

Take one look at an optical illusion. By your living witness, the illusion is absolutely real and undeniable.
That's ridiculous.

Even if you ignore the materialist argument for improbability, there is the argument from conflicting accounts.

If personal witness to a pastor appearing to have knowledge of a friends situation is proof of Jesus Christ and God, then you must ALSO accept that statues drinking milk from teaspoons is also evidence for the existence of Ganesh (1995, 2006, 2010).

Personal experience is NOT a standard, it is the externalism of your internal convictions transferred upon a mundane event instead of more reasonable explanations and to the exclusion of all but the imagined supernatural ones.

I'm not saying what you "witnessed" is not true, but how would you KNOW that you have not been fooled.

I can do a ton of magic tricks, and you won't be able to explain how I do them... will you automatically assume I can do magic, or would you reason a more mundane explanation? You are a skeptic just like me.. but you clearly suspend your disbelief as soon as your brand of religion pulls something off.

[Minimalist]

Why is it you in this thread and DP in the other thread seem to be missing the latter part of that sentence that says (if they are authentic and not Christian interpolations) but fact is they are both much to late to distinguish between Christ and Christianity?

Because it doesn't matter, Phil. Interpolations or not neither mention the word "jesus." Nor, for that matter did Pliny writing somewhat earlier than Suetonius.
Lucian of Samosata (c 160) makes reference to a crucified "founder" but again does not use the word "jesus."

For that, we are stuck waiting until Celsus c 180 AD.

Origen, Contra Celsum 1.28

Translation, quoted from Mead.

"Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god."

Obviously, xtians are reluctant to rely on this one too much!

[Cyberman]

Ron Wyatt claimed he discovered the blood of Jesus, the face of Jesus was discovered on a Shroud, wouldn't the bible count I mean there are 365 prophecies of Jesus recorded in the Old Testament.

What about out of body experiences of people visiting Heaven and Hell.

When I was at church I took my friend with me and the pastor began talking about his family and personal issues yet neither knew each other. Later he said they were all true. A lady did this to me also and it was true. Supernaturalism cannot de denied when you are a living witness.

Wow - all aboard the fail train!

[Thor]

What about out of body experiences of people visiting Heaven and Hell.

What about it? These are hallucinations brought on by an oxygen starved brain. You might as well point to dreams as evidence of your imaginary friend.

When I was at church I took my friend with me and the pastor began talking about his family and personal issues yet neither knew each other.

My goodness! How could this possibly be!?!?!?

How about...

1) The pastor is good at reading people.

2) The pastor knew some information about your friend.

3) The two knew each other and didn't tell you.

4) Your story is an exaggeration or a complete fabrication.

There you have four completely reasonable explanations. Of course, you are free to run with the most unlikely scenario. That being that some supernatural force was involved.

Later he said they were all true.

Uh-huh....

A lady did this to me also and it was true.

"A lady"? What did you do... go to some fortune teller? Because frauds like John Edwards, Sylvia Browne and James Van Praagh use cold reading techniques to make people believe they have woo-woo powers. Sounds like you're just as gullible as the dopes who pay big bucks for a ticket to see these charlatans.

Supernaturalism cannot de denied when you are a living witness.

And how do you know you saw anything supernatural? Magicians are very skilled at deception. If you think you have encountered anyone who has real supernatural ability, tell them to apply to the James Randi Educational Foundation and take the organization's Million Dollar Challenge. All they have to do is demonstrate any supernatural ability under controlled conditions and they will be awarded one million dollars! But be advised that when you offer this challenge, the charlatans will almost certainly come up with excuses why their powers can't be tested. Good luck!

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I mean there are 365 prophecies of Jesus recorded in the Old Testament

Actually,"Jesus" is a Roman,not a Hebrew name and is not mentioned once. Nor,as far as I'm aware is the name Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yosuf .

Nor did Jesus come close to fulfilling prophecy for the Messiah, beginning with: The Messiah is to be a military as well a spiritual leader,in the Davidic tradition. It is emphatically stated that the Messiah is to be to normal man and most definitely NOT DIVINE.


So far,I have yet to see ANY credible evidence for any kind of precogintion,fortune telling or prophecy. The Christian claims that Jesus met messianic are farcical and I believe essentially dishonest.

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Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

The concept of the messiah seems to have developed in later Judaism. The Torah contains no specific reference to him, though some Jewish scholars have pointed out that it does speak of the "End of Days," which is the time of the messiah.

The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.

Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.

Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel. In general, only the following passages are accepted as referring to the messiah:

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
The concept of the messiah seems to have developed in later Judaism. The Torah contains no specific reference to him, though some Jewish scholars have pointed out that it does speak of the "End of Days," which is the time of the messiah.

The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.

Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.

Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel. In general, only the following passages are accepted as referring to the messiah:

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/bel...essiah.htm