JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

[Cyberman]

bits of fundy brain

Please present evidence for the existence of this fundy brain you speak of.

Curses - you put your finger on the one weak spot!

[Alter2Ego]

Ok, I think this has gone about as far as it can. I know you won't see it this way but I'm sure that everyone will agree that you clearly have no substantial response to the point I raised; otherwise you'd have presented it in place of the constant diarrhoea of red herrings and ad homs that you still insist on using. Seriously, I've had fish on the end of the line that squirmed less than you. If you want to address the actual point instead of dancing around blowing smoke from your arse, please do so. Otherwise I'm done here.

ALTER2EGO -to- STIMBO:
What point did you raise?

ANSWER: None.

All you've presented thus far--as usual--is your personal opinion that the Flavius Josephus writings about Jesus Christ is a fabrication. Whenever I ask you to present evidence to prove what you and your "writing experts" are saying, you take the discussion full circle by accusing me of not addressing "the point you raise."

You've been doing your usual evasive dance in every topic we've discussed. In the future, if you post anything else to me on the topic of Flavius Josephus without presenting evidence to prove what you are saying, I will not respond.

[Cyberman]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new winner for this month's Shiny Mirror Award!

+50 Butthurt Bonus as well!

---

To everyone else, here's a fun little experiment to try. This is the full Chapter 3 of Josephus' Antiquities Book XVIII, minus the Testimonium Flavianum. I've also stripped it of paragraph numbering and footnotes:

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME.

BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief. This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee. As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

There was a man who was a Jew, but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same; but in all respects a wicked man. He, then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses. He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem; and when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves, on which account it was that they at first required it of her. Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it, ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome; at which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia; but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers, on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.

And here is the TF paragraph:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Can you identify, purely from the text as it stands, precisely where the TF ought to fit into the main body? Try to put aside any preconceived knowledge of the text and approach this at face value.

[FallentoReason]

People do not go to such lengths to disprove the historicity of a person unless they realize the importance of the person they are attempting to disprove and unless they themselves realize the person must have existed in history. For instance, I don't see anybody trying to disprove the historicity of mythical Greek gods. The reason for that is simple: they know such characters are mere fictions of the imagination.

I beg to differ.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-12505.html

By my research alone, Hercules is more real than Jesus by a factor of 25. That is, 25 times more secular historians mention an Historical Hercules than secular historians mention an Historical Jesus.

The only historian that I'm referring to that mentions Jesus is of course Josephus. As it has been pointed out to you, not a single Christian or non-Christian ever quotes Josephus on what he says about Jesus until the time of the Christian historian Eusebius. Care to explain why?

[NoahsFarce]

All you've presented thus far--as usual--is your personal opinion that the Flavius Josephus writings about Jesus Christ is a fabrication. Whenever I ask you to present evidence to prove what you and your "writing experts" are saying, you take the discussion full circle by accusing me of not addressing "the point you raise."

And what exactly do you do when we ask you for evidence of Yahweh??? You resort to one of two books. That's all the expertise you need right? You can't even tell me who your "writing experts" are.

People do not go to such lengths to disprove the historicity of a person unless they realize the importance of the person they are attempting to disprove and unless they themselves realize the person must have existed in history.

This is the exact same fallacious argument as the one that accuses of Atheists of actually believing in God.

You know what? I want to share your logic for a moment...

YOU CHRISTIANS WOULDN'T BE SO DAMN AGAINST GAYS IF YOU WEREN'T ACTUALLY GAY YOURSELVES.

YOU WOULDN'T BE SO AGAINST CHILD RAPE IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE AN URGE TO RAPE A CHILD YOURSELF.

Your logic is disgusting. You aren't here for an honest debate Alter2Ego. You're here to try and spread your propaganda and it's backfiring on you very fast.

Over and over I see rehashed theistic arguments. I bet your main source of reference is http://www.answersingenesis.org/.

[Brian37]

To answer the title of this thread, my question is, why should it matter if Jesus existed or not? How does that make virgin birth or claims of zombie gods real?

We can prove that George Washington existed but no sane person goes around claiming he could fart a Lamborghini out of his ass.

We go to the movies and see Superman fly around New York City, but humans don't fly like that just because New York is a real city.

It takes TWO sets of DNA to manifest into a baby and human flesh does not survive rigor mortis.

It is highly unlikely the Jesus Character existed, even just as a mere mortal. The realty is that the founders of the new religion were simply inspired by prior myths and motifs. There was a man or group of people who started Christianity otherwise it would not exist. But magic will never be real.

[Minimalist]

I thought it was pretty obvious what her gender was by her avatar. Are you people blind?

My avatar is an Egyptian god. I never regarded them as legit.

---

for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold

Um, no. There is no such "prophecy" in Jewish scripture. It's just made up shit by later xtians along with a whole bunch of other phony "prophecies." Yet, Josephus, as a member of a priestly family should have been aware of all such prophecies, no? How come he fucked this one up?

[Anomalocaris]

I thought it was pretty obvious what her gender was by her avatar. Are you people blind?

I might also guess she is middle aged, not highly educated, obsessive, associatively intelligent, either has children and divorced or unable to have childrem, african american, live in a major city, and dependent on a protestant revivalist church.

I'd be interested to find out how close are my guesses.

[Regens Küchl]

I thought it was pretty obvious what her gender was by her avatar. Are you people blind?

I might also guess she is middle aged, not highly educated, obsessive, associatively intelligent, either has children and divorced or unable to have childrem, african american, live in a major city, and dependent on a protestant revivalist church.

I'd be interested to find out how close are my guesses.

Here you go

Alter2Ego
42-year old female in Los Angeles, California, United States.
Online: 4 Days Ago Name: - Private -
Updated: 2 Months Ago Gender: Female
Joined: 2 Months Ago Birthday: - Private -
President: Not Saying Email: - Private -
Ideology: Not Saying Education: Not Saying
Party: Not Saying Ethnicity: Black
Relationship: Not Saying Income: Not Saying
Interested: No Answer Occupation: Not Saying
Looking: No Answer Religion: Christian
http://www.debate.org/Alter2Ego/

[Minimalist]

Not too bad, Chuck.