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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 14, 2012 at 10:26 pm
Quote: So people could potentially do evil in heaven, sounds fair enough. Would they then be sent to hell or purgatory supposing that they did decide to commit evil while in heaven?
So basically you are asking if a perfect person was to commit evil, would they be "sent" to a rejection of God or the process of being cleansed from their sins?
Leaving aside that perfect people do not commit evil, any committing of a sin is a rejection of God and of love, and they would be "sent" to Hell.
If you are in the absence of goodness, you cannot feel remorse, and there is no goodness inside of you either.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 15, 2012 at 7:32 am
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2012 at 7:35 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, you did say that it was possible to do so. I'm just following you down the rabbit hole. If a perfect person cannot commit evil, and heaven is full of perfect people, then, no, it would not be possible. If "perfect people" can commit evil, but don't, one still wonders why. What changed between this life and the next?
(One also wonders, btw, where you get all of this inside information about heaven, purgatory, hell, and what is within other people.)
Again, care to point out someone you feel has "no goodness inside"?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 15, 2012 at 7:36 am
(May 15, 2012 at 7:32 am)Rhythm Wrote: Again, care to point out someone you feel has "no goodness inside"?
... hi. :-)
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 15, 2012 at 2:20 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2012 at 2:20 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
Prooftexts that support the idea that the damned impose the punishments of hell upon themselves:
You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. John 8:15
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world but to save it. John 12:47
“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me—Revelation 3:20.
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 15, 2012 at 2:54 pm
(May 15, 2012 at 7:32 am)Rhythm Wrote: . If "perfect people" can commit evil, but don't, one still wonders why. What changed between this life and the next?
(One also wonders, btw, where you get all of this inside information about heaven, purgatory, hell, and what is within other people.)
This is the right option, right here. For those who go to Heaven right after death (such as the Blessed Virgin Mary, for example), they reached perfection and already attached their will to God during their lifetime, without even the slightest imperfections in their heart. Such a person doesn't commit evil during their lifetime either, so nothing really changed, and death for them is a very simple matter. For others, they are made perfect through many years in Purgatory, possibly thousands, always moving closer to God.
Information about purgatory, hell and heaven is gained from the teachings of Jesus+the Apostles.
Quote:Again, care to point out someone you feel has "no goodness inside"?
The only answer I can give would be Satan, any speculation onto any humans heart is absolutely verboten.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 15, 2012 at 5:06 pm
How are they "made perfect" and in what way would this differ from being "made" incapable of sinning in heaven? Full circle. Still can't find anything on purgatory. I think you and your buddies made it up (nothing to be ashamed about, considering).
That's the only answer you can give? Again, sounds to me like hell is a lonely place, what with there being Satan, and, well just Satan down there. If that's the only answer you can give btw, then how on earth did you come to the knowledge that there are people with "no goodness in them", and where these people would go? I think that's more of the above.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 16, 2012 at 4:40 am
(May 15, 2012 at 5:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: How are they "made perfect" and in what way would this differ from being "made" incapable of sinning in heaven? Full circle. Still can't find anything on purgatory. I think you and your buddies made it up (nothing to be ashamed about, considering).
That's the only answer you can give? Again, sounds to me like hell is a lonely place, what with there being Satan, and, well just Satan down there. If that's the only answer you can give btw, then how on earth did you come to the knowledge that there are people with "no goodness in them", and where these people would go? I think that's more of the above.
They are made perfect the same way as anyone: through enjoining their hearts to God. Not committing evil and being unable to commit evil are 2 different things. I am capable of hitting someone, but I don't, because I am not so violent.
I posted purgatory-relevant verses before, and also noted that it is not necessary that everything be in the Bible.
And no, there is more people than Satan in Hell as revealed through many Christian Saints (and alluded to by Our Lord when he notes that the path is narrow), but I could not name them. Again all information is from the teachings of Christ Jesus.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
Posts: 67287
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 16, 2012 at 8:08 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2012 at 8:08 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I'll be honest here, "enjoining hearts to god" sounds like a platitude. However, isn't that what you're supposed to be doing here in this world? Purgatory sounds like an endless progression of "second chances". If we have thousands of years to get it right in purgatory why the dog and pony show down here on earth?
Again, you claim that many people have "no goodness" but fail to provide even a single example of such a person. It was a ridiculous claim. Hell, by your definition, is likely to be fairly fucking empty. If it isn't, then somebody (you, your saints, your christ) is mistaken on the criteria for damnation.
(still can't find this purgatory place btw)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 16, 2012 at 9:44 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2012 at 9:45 am by NoMoreFaith.)
The interesting thing about purgatory to me, is that if we assume eternity in heaven, any finite amount of time in purgatory becomes equivalent.
Whether you spend 10 seconds or 10 million years there, eternity in heaven renders both periods equivalent, which leads to the inevitable conclusion your actions on earth are meaningless when it comes to attaining entry to heaven.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: What stops you from sinning in heaven?
May 16, 2012 at 9:45 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2012 at 9:45 am by Welsh cake.)
Okay, so we've had a lot of apologetic arguments from theists that you can't sin in Heaven for various reasons.
All of them ignore Satan and a third of heaven falling away from grace and perfection.
Seems that our Christian members cannot accept or fathom that they'll eventually fuck up and be cast out of god's presence when faced with an eternity of endless potential moments in time to fuck up and allow sinful thoughts and desires to control them. Hell is inevitable, its only a question of when you'll get sent there.
After a googolplex god's kingdom will eventually collapse. Sin, it would seem, is far more powerful than the inferior loving god and does a better job of drawing all men to it and downward forever.
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