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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 6, 2012 at 7:30 pm
Quote:I know that god doesn't exist for the same reason that I know that $&@# doesn’t exist.
Really. Positive claim which attracts the burden of proof,let's see it .
An absence of evidence implies (suggests) a case and it often turns out to be correct. However, an absence of evidence is not proof in and on itself. "Evidence' is not a synonym for 'proof'
There are shiploads of evidence for the existence of God(s),such a the holy books and centuries of personal accounts. What there is not is any CREDIBLE evidence or proof.
My point is pedantic. I my life AS IF there are no gods,soul,afterlife,heaven,hell,angels,demons,miracles, paranormal,alien visitations, dragons,mountain trolls or fairies living at the bottom of my garden. I simply make no claims as I can't offer any proof for my disbelief.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 6, 2012 at 7:42 pm
Quote:Really. Positive claim which attracts the burden of proof,let's see it .
You're right. I can't prove that &@# doesn't exist, but I don't have to disprove every &@# to not have to take it into account whenever I try to understand reality.
Quote:There are shiploads of evidence for the existence of God(s),such a the holy books and centuries of personal accounts. What there is not is any CREDIBLE evidence or proof.
I think you are confusing "claim" with "evidence." Evidence is used to determine the truth of a claim. A personal or Biblical account of God is a claim and not evidence.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 6, 2012 at 8:21 pm
Quote:I think you are confusing "claim" with "evidence."
No,I am not. I am using evidence in the legal sense. That is why in my basic assertion of position I say: "I do not believe in gods due to a lack of CREDIBLE evidence"
A minor quibble, I can see no difference between our views worth arguing about; I make no claim to be a philosopher. I'm more your contrary,pedantic old fart.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 6, 2012 at 8:45 pm
(July 6, 2012 at 8:21 pm)padraic Wrote: Quote:I think you are confusing "claim" with "evidence."
No,I am not. I am using evidence in the legal sense. That is why in my basic assertion of position I say: "I do not believe in gods due to a lack of CREDIBLE evidence"
Sorry, I’m not familiar with the legal definition. In science, evidence results from the testing of explanations, so a Biblical or personal claim about God isn’t evidence.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 7, 2012 at 3:27 am
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2012 at 3:28 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I think you might be miscategorizing evidence Pad. Holy Books and texts are evidence of authors and beliefs, not less-than-credible evidence for the existence of gods.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 7, 2012 at 3:37 am
(July 7, 2012 at 3:27 am)Rhythm Wrote: I think you might be miscategorizing evidence Pad. Holy Books and texts are evidence of authors and beliefs, not less-than-credible evidence for the existence of gods.
I think you are conflating 'evidence' and 'proof'.
Evidence implies,it does not necessarily infer.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 7, 2012 at 3:42 am
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2012 at 3:55 am by The Grand Nudger.)
No, I'm using the word evidence in the same sense as you, and that would be the objection I raised if we were in some sort of hellish court that hashed over these things. If you're going to present evidence of something, it ought to be evidence of what you are presenting. In this case it seems fairly simple to show that it is not (obviously just my opinion).
"Your honor I have evidence that the defendant killed this man in cold blood. If you'll turn to page 34 of "Patio Gardening Made Easy" you will see that....I rest my case"
I'm wondering Pad, would you call Dracula less than credible evidence for the existence of vampires?
(also a question I'd ask in our hypothetical courtroom)
You know, since we're speaking about the legal sense of a term, it might also be useful to mention that our systems of law might be different, where are you at? Here, anything can be offered as evidence, but not everything offered will be accepted as evidence. Evidence that is less-than-compelling/credible often gets admitted, but this less-than-compelling/credible evidence still has requirements to meet (or arguments to be made).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 7, 2012 at 5:13 am
Since when is asserting a negative a "positive claim"? That's ridiculous.
If a person is found dead with no signs of murder at all, but somebody believes I murdered that person and I positively assert that I didn't murder them, it is not up to me to prove that the person wasn't murdered and that I didn't do it. It's up to them to prove that the person was murdered and then that I did it.
Same goes if I positively assert that Uranus isn't populated by a cannibalistic race bearing an uncanny resemblance to Winnie The Pooh and the burden of proof would lie with any person claiming it is.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 7, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Quote:I'm wondering Pad, would you call Dracula less than credible evidence for the existence of vampires?
Yes. I obtained my understanding from a good friend who is a prosecuting barrister. I concede I may have misunderstood. I'll ask him again next time see him.
Quote:Since when is asserting a negative a "positive claim"? That's ridiculous.
Argument from incredulity.
A positive claim is any claim about the existence or properties of anything.
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RE: Who positivity asserts. "there is no god!"
July 7, 2012 at 8:11 pm
(July 7, 2012 at 5:13 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Since when is asserting a negative a "positive claim"? That's ridiculous.
If a person is found dead with no signs of murder at all, but somebody believes I murdered that person and I positively assert that I didn't murder them, it is not up to me to prove that the person wasn't murdered and that I didn't do it. It's up to them to prove that the person was murdered and then that I did it.
Same goes if I positively assert that Uranus isn't populated by a cannibalistic race bearing an uncanny resemblance to Winnie The Pooh and the burden of proof would lie with any person claiming it is.
The fact that the claim you're making is in relation to what you say isn't true about gods makes it no less your claim. As the one asserting it isn't so, it is certainly up to you to show you are correct. To say there are no gods you will need a clear idea of what gods are before you can show what they are not. Do you have that knowledge or don't you? If you don't, you're in no better position than any theist to support what it is you are asserting about gods.
My old epistemology professor would have said any assertion regarding something non-existent fails as a proposition. I disagreed with him because, to my mind, the assertion "unicorns did not trample my garden again today" conveys an obvious meaning and even happens to be true. So he might have taken your side, since you haven't really said anything at all if gods don't exist. Perhaps you therefore owe no burden of proof. Then again, the claims of theists pertain to the same (we think) non-existent entities so should they too get a pass?
To my mind, if we want to go on requiring objective evidence for statements intended to get us to give up what we believe, then we must abide by the same standard.
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