Question for both Christians and Muslims.

[Mystic]

In case of Christianity:

Is that disbelievers are to be damned for disbelieving or do disbelievers disbelief because they are damned?

In case of Islam:

Are disbelievers unjust for disbelieving or do disbelievers disbelieve because they are unjust?

[Rayaan]

Are disbelievers unjust for disbelieving or do disbelievers disbelieve because they are unjust?

I'm not sure. It sort of sounds like the chicken and egg question.

Also, I don't think that belief/disbelief is an indication of whether or not someone is just/unjust. Rather, I think that the disbelief itself is the unjust, but not necessarily the person.

[Mystic]

Are disbelievers unjust for disbelieving or do disbelievers disbelieve because they are unjust?

I'm not sure. It sort of sounds like the chicken and egg question.

Also, I don't think that belief/disbelief is an indication of whether or not someone is just/unjust. Rather, I think that the disbelief itself is the unjust, but not necessarily the person.

Believe it or not, Quran paints both images, in some verses.

It states that God punishes people for their disbelief, and people will to go to hell because they disbelieved and says whom is more unjust then whom rejects God's Ayat (signs/revelations/instances of his guidance) and at the same time states they are blind because their hearts are stained by sins and evil actions, which makes them not hear, and states if he knew any good in them, he would have made the hear and says God doesn't guide the unjust.

But this is an issue, which ones comes first. If injustice/bad actions come first, then why is God stating he punishes them for disbelief? And if he punishes them for disbelief, why does he state then their hearts were blind and deaf to their own evil, and that is why they disbelieved...so what caused disbelief should be the real reason of punishment here.

It's the same problem with Christianity. Both images are shown in the Bible. But both can't be true.

The real problem in trying to condemn disbelief as a bad action, while at the same time, trying to say, the reason they disbelief is due to evil, is a natural consequence of trying to condemn disbelievers.

The problem will naturally arise when trying to condemn disbelievers.

[Rayaan]

I think that it is the disbelief that leads to their punishment (i.e. disbelief being the primary unjust while actions are secondary).

"As for those who have rejected (these truths), it is all the same whether or not you warn them, for they will not believe. Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and a covering has fallen over their eyes. They deserve severe chastisement." (Al-Baqara, verses 6-7)

Explanation:

"This does not mean that their rejection of the Truth is a consequence of God sealing their hearts. What is meant is that God sealed their hearts and ears as a consequence of their decision to reject the fundamentals of faith, of their deliberate choice of a path divergent from that charted out by the Qur'an. Anyone who has worked for the dissemination of the Truth often finds that if, after full consideration, a person decides against a doctrine, his mind begins to move in a completely opposite direction so that he fails to appreciate anything that is explained to him. His ears become deaf, his eyes are blinded to the merits of that doctrine, and one gets the distinct impression that the person's heart has indeed been sealed."

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2

[jupitor]

I think that it is the disbelief that leads to their punishment (i.e. disbelief being the primary unjust while actions are secondary).

"As for those who have rejected (these truths), it is all the same whether or not you warn them, for they will not believe. Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and a covering has fallen over their eyes. They deserve severe chastisement." (Al-Baqara, verses 6-7)

Explanation:

"This does not mean that their rejection of the Truth is a consequence of God sealing their hearts. What is meant is that God sealed their hearts and ears as a consequence of their decision to reject the fundamentals of faith, of their deliberate choice of a path divergent from that charted out by the Qur'an. Anyone who has worked for the dissemination of the Truth often finds that if, after full consideration, a person decides against a doctrine, his mind begins to move in a completely opposite direction so that he fails to appreciate anything that is explained to him. His ears become deaf, his eyes are blinded to the merits of that doctrine, and one gets the distinct impression that the person's heart has indeed been sealed."

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2

And as this earth has been here for four and a half billion years, where was God until a couple of thousand years ago?

[Mystic]

Yeah that verse shows it's a consequence of disbelieving. Yet other verses shows their disbelief is a consequence of their unjust nature and evil deeds. Other verses states the covering on their hearts is due to their actions, and that they don't hear, because there is no good in them. If there was good in them, they would have heard, while only believers hear the message per other verses.

[Reforged]

How this discussion will probably unfold:
Theist: Well some people are born bad and disbelieve where as others become bad and disbelieve.
Atheist: Doesn't God know whos going to be a disbeliever full stop? Why doesn't he just not create them?
Theist: Everyone is subject to freewill, their beliefs are their choice.
Atheist: But God is supposedly omnipotent, that would mean he knows how everything will take place whether freewill is involved or not. Doesn't it?
Theist: The mind of God isn't known to me, what his intentions are I cannot say.
Atheist: As far as I know it isn't known to anyone, ever. There isn't even any evidence a God has ever existed.
Theist: Judging from your standard of evidence, yes.
Atheist: What is your standard of evidence?
Theist: I know God to be real through personal experience, I am blessed by his presence. That is my evidence.
Atheist: Can you prove that to be anything other than excess dopamine and adrenaline brought on by a delusion? In short, do you have anything other than a feeling?
Theist: The presence of God is transcendent, it isn't something that can be tested. (random bible passage)
Atheist: How convenient, well in that case I have an invisible friend whos far more powerful than your God and equally immune to testing.
Theist: You're lying.
Atheist: Now what makes you say that?
Theist: I'm done, you're obviously too stupid to come up with a reasonable argument.
Atheist: Really? I thought I just mirrored your stance. Insults and a retreat, typical. I'd explain what burden of proof is but I don't want to pay for cleaning up the mess it'd cause when your head explodes from trying to hold an intelligent thought.
RaphielDrake: *ziiiip* *FLOP* :-)
Theist: ...
Atheist: ...
RaphielDrake: Awwww yeeeeeah.

[Welsh cake]

Also, I don't think that belief/disbelief is an indication of whether or not someone is just/unjust. Rather, I think that the disbelief itself is the unjust, but not necessarily the person.

Okay there are non-believers in this world. I'm a non-believer. Let's say for sake of argument Allah is real.

I'm still in disbelief. Would you presume that your god doesn't honestly care whether a few insects on a tiny insignificant planet believe in him or not?

If your god doesn't care and doesn't take action against or to remedy non-belief then why call disbelief unjust?

[Kayenneh]

I think that it is the disbelief that leads to their punishment (i.e. disbelief being the primary unjust while actions are secondary).

"As for those who have rejected (these truths), it is all the same whether or not you warn them, for they will not believe. Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and a covering has fallen over their eyes. They deserve severe chastisement." (Al-Baqara, verses 6-7)

Seriously Ray, do you really believe that all of us non-believers are to be punished, just because we didn't believe in a thing that couldn't be proved? If the Quaran states that there indeed are 'truths', please prove them to us, as to avoid this horrible faith that awaits us. Otherwise, don't say that our eyes were sealed because of your god, but opened because we saw something more.

[Ben Davis]

In case of Christianity:

Is that disbelievers are to be damned for disbelieving or do disbelievers disbelief because they are damned?

In case of Islam:

Are disbelievers unjust for disbelieving or do disbelievers disbelieve because they are unjust?

Isn't it a case of 'both'? That is to say that the religions are covering their bases.

And doesn't it depend on the person? That is to say it depends on one's 'propensity for belief':

1. Some people, when they reach their age of reason, are incapable of belief; they're simply not wired that way (I have a friend who fits this category). Those people are equivalent to 'disbelieving because they're damned/unjust'; their inherent nature means they disbelieve and in the abrahamic paradigms, those people are irretrievably 'damned/unjust'.

2. Some people, when they reach their age of reason, are still capable of belief but learn not to believe; their wiring permits the possibility of continued belief but their education/knowledge leads them to disbelieve (I fit this category). Those people are equivalent to 'damned/unjust because they disbelieve'; their learned behaviour means they disbelieve and in the abrahamic paradigms, those people have been tempted into sin thus 'damned/unjust' - salvagable but still 'damned/unjust'.