Do atheists need some faith?

[Simon Moon]

Whether another method is available doesn't speak to whether evidence, argument and logic are qualified to determine whether a god exists.

I completely understand. But what else do I have to go on?

I am not claiming to know that I have all the tools needed to determine whether a god exists of not. My position is, that given what is currently available, I am unable to justify the belief that a god exists.

My atheism is a completely provisional position based on the current best methods to determine whether something is true, or at least likely to be true.

It's not that hard to propose that the abilities of a single species on a single planet, in one of billions of galaxies, would most likely not be qualified to answer such a huge question such as "what does or doesn't lie at the heart of all reality?"

I completely agree.

That's why I never claim to know, with absolute certainty, that a god does not exist.

But I have to be able to base my beliefs on something. The single best method humans have to determine if a belief is true, or at least likely to be true, is demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument and valid logic.

The evidence seems to indicate that aren't exactly a genius species.

Again we agree. I admit we have limitations.

But I can't base my beliefs on something that we might or might not be intelligent enough to determine. I am a human, I only have the mental tools available to me as a human.

[The Grand Nudger]

Create gap, insert god, declare incompetence(just to scorch the earth).

[downbeatplumb]

I'm sure you've all heard that it takes more faith to be an atheist than a theist, well I'm unsure if that is actually true.

It is false, my default position has always been athiest and nothing I've seen has swayed me.

So here is my question, well, there is actually two questions:

It seems that many atheists are atheists not because of evidence against theism but because of a lack of evidence for theism. Is this true?

In my case its both, there is no reason to believe in any god, but the abrahamic gods have a plethora of reasons NOT to believe them. I mean Noahs ark come on!!

If so, isn't there a little faith involved that there really isn't any evidence for theism that may have been overlooked or yet to be discovered?

Discover it then we'll talk.
However anything you find convincing may not be so to me. Remember your god is an extradinary claim and so would require extradinary proof.

Thanks in advance.

Your welcome.

[Felasco]

Do we have any competition from the grey squirrels in the area of nuclear proliferation? Let's not assign to ignorance those "accomplishments" which we have negative personal value judgements of.

If theists could be blamed exclusively for deliberately putting us in the position of being able to exterminate ourselves because of just one bad day, what word would we use to describe those theists? I'd imagine stupid might be one of those words.

Whether or not things exist that are beyond our ability to comprehend is beyond our ability to answer -by definition-, we do not know what we do not know. We may assume that there are such things, but why?

You've answered this yourself...

Experience tells us that while we often manage to get things dismally wrong our ability to pierce the veil of mystery surrounding us increases exponentially over time.

Why should we be in a big hurry to come to a final answer? It took us thousands of years to discover galaxies beyond our own. Sometimes, things take time.

Might there exist some things which we are incapable of perceiving by any means? Well, lets do a little thought experiment and assume that there are. In what way, if they are completely imperceptible to us, would they be a part of our reality, our universe, our cosmos? None at all.

Gamma rays would be part of our reality, even if we couldn't detect them.

If these imperceptible things were literally dancing a jig on my head right now it wouldn't matter in the least, would it?

It would matter, you just wouldn't know why your hair is always messed up, and that would remain a mystery.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating intellectual laziness, but if we're willing to invoke complete and utter inability to answer such questions then the question itself becomes meaningless.

If the truth is that we are immeasurably small and reality is immeasurably big, and that there may be things we'll never understand, that's hardly meaningless as it directly affects our relationship with reality.

The best theists get this situation, face it, and use it constructively to enhance humility and awe etc. The less best theists try to fill in the unknown with all kinds of fantasy knowings so that they can parade around pretending they are superior etc.

Finally, it may be possible to resolve the question if not answer it. Why do we ask the question in the first place? Why do we promote gods, or rebel against them? If we can understand that need and meet it somehow, the question may melt away naturally without ever being answered.

If we can't figure out how to explain to a child why there are no monsters under the bed, we give them a bunch of hugs, and they gradually lose interest in monsters under the bed, without needing a logical proof of non-existence.

Now, all that being said, are you entirely sure that the god question deserves this much respect and consideration? I certainly don't think so.

And yet, here you are, here we are, considering it together. Whether we are for or against or in between, we are interested in considering, or we wouldn't be on a forum like this.

Billions of people over thousands of years have shared this interest, creating the largest cultural event in human history. I'm not sure what the logic would be in ignoring the largest cultural event in human history.

---

But I have to be able to base my beliefs on something.

It seems fair to ask why we have to have a belief on this subject, one way or the other. Please understand, I'm not challenging your personal decision to have a belief, but asking the question in a general way about all of us. Why are we in such a big hurry to have an answer? What's so wrong with "I don't know"?

The single best method humans have to determine if a belief is true, or at least likely to be true, is demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument and valid logic.

And yet, after thousands of years, neither reason or faith have resolved the question. The conversation remains right about where it's always been. The evidence, reason and logic seem to be saying that what we're doing is not working.

Now what?

[Simon Moon]

But I have to be able to base my beliefs on something.

It seems fair to ask why we have to have a belief on this subject, one way or the other. Please understand, I'm not challenging your personal decision to have a belief, but asking the question in a general way about all of us. Why are we in such a big hurry to have an answer? What's so wrong with "I don't know"?

When it comes to the existence of gods, I have no beliefs. That's why I'm an atheist.

I am fine with answering "I don't know". When it comes to whether gods exist or not, "I don't know" is my position.

And yet, after thousands of years, neither reason or faith have resolved the question. The conversation remains right about where it's always been. The evidence, reason and logic seem to be saying that what we're doing is not working.

Now what?

The conversation may be right about where it's always been, but there is less justification to believe gods exist than ever.

Actually, reason has worked very well to continue to decrease the places where gods can hide. Reason taught us that gods are not responsible for; disease, floods, famine, earthquakes, droughts, etc. Now it looks like gods aren't even able to hide in the existence of the universe anymore.

Now what?

I continue to not have any beliefs with regards to the existence of gods until their existence can be justified.

By the way, atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive positions.

[Felasco]

Actually, reason has worked very well to continue to decrease the places where gods can hide. Reason taught us that gods are not responsible for; disease, floods, famine, earthquakes, droughts, etc. Now it looks like gods aren't even able to hide in the existence of the universe anymore.

I continue to not have any beliefs with regards to the existence of gods until their existence can be justified.

I don't want to butt in, so I'll leave you to argue amongst yourself. :-)

[Simon Moon]

I don't want to butt in, so I'll leave you to argue amongst yourself. :-)

There are no contradictions in anything I said.

[Felasco]

Reason taught us that gods are not responsible for; disease, floods, famine, earthquakes, droughts, etc.

I continue to not have any beliefs with regards to the existence of gods until their existence can be justified.

No beliefs in regards to the existence of gods?

THEISM: People who know they have beliefs.

ATHEISM: People who don't know they have beliefs.

[Simon Moon]

No beliefs in regards to the existence of gods?

Yes. I don't have sufficient justification to believe a god exists, therefore I suspend belief in their existence. This does not mean I believe the inverse.

THEISM: People who know they have beliefs.

ATHEISM: People who don't know they have beliefs.

The definition of belief is - any cognitive content held as true.

I do not hold as true that a god exists. I also do not hold as true that a god does not exist.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe a god or gods exist?

[Whateverist]

THEISM: People who know they have beliefs.

ATHEISM: People who don't know they have beliefs.

That can't be right. I know I have beliefs and I am without theism. I act routinely with faith in a number of beliefs for which I have no proof. I don't know for certain that other people have minds and subjective experience like my own but I carry on as though and, in fact, truly believe that they do. I suppose that is a kind of faith and one I am happy to own.

I have plenty of beliefs about gods too.

I can't make sense of a class of objects which are by their very nature 'supernatural'. To my way of thinking, everything that exists is and must be natural. Our inability to detect it doesn't guarantee that it doesn't exist, but if it does exist it is natural. So one belief I have about gods is that if they exist, they are part of the universe - not the known universe obviously, but definitely part of the natural order.

I also cannot make sense of the idea of a god as being that which which came before everything else. That is, if an accounting of the beginnings of the universe is required, then so too must the origins of a creator being be accounted for. Otherwise, attributing creation to a creator is no explanation at all.

It has been suggested that atheists are excessively sure of themselves and lack humility. I'd say that is an extremely common condition to humans of every stripe, theists and atheists alike. Who is to say how much importance should be given to the question of the existence of gods?

When I say I am an atheist, what I mean is that it doesn't appear that I ever act in such a way as to take into account the wishes or demands of any gods. In other words, it isn't just a matter of how I think I should act in regard to gods. Apart from my thoughts and opinions there are the beliefs inherent in what I actually do. In my case, I find nothing of the kind regarding gods. If the atheism descriptor fits, why not own it?