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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
July 27, 2012 at 8:44 am
(July 27, 2012 at 8:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Why didn't he.. who could know? Why couldn't he.. he could. -malice.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
July 27, 2012 at 1:18 pm
fr0d0 Wrote:And I thought I had the objectiv/ subjective thing beat. Damn you!
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 13, 2017 at 7:08 pm
(This post was last modified: November 13, 2017 at 7:27 pm by Mystic.)
I wanted to bump this, because, this is the best form of the argument of evil I can come up with.
Yet I can explain how this is an argument from ignorance like all other versions of the problem of evil.
And if we get passed that perhaps, I will give a response to the question, which I posed many years ago.
Actually, I can rephrase the argument in OP:
God would not create suffering without any benefit in some way or another, to the over all system or particular person, that cannot be achieved except with this suffering.
If God exists, then God did create suffering without any benefit but rather harmed more so than it benefited, and the benefit could have been created through a different means.
Therefore God can't exist.
I can rebute this very easily:
God gave us a perfect system without suffering.
Consequences when we disobeyed God and the perfect system and balance are for our own benefit only when we are rebellious and disobey.
God didn't create suffering, rather, it's a consequence of sin, and is to negate a greater suffering.
Counter argument:
The consequences could have been done in a way that they weren't necessarily the degree of suffering or type of suffering they bring to bring about the good.
Counter to counter argument:
The consequence naturally must be distasteful and evil, and something humans want to get rid of. The degree of suffering must cause us pain to achieve the result.
Without the degree and various type of suffering, humans who oppress others, would feel more arrogant, the oppressed more complicit to their oppression, and the fear of death and tribulations that keep us on edge from sinning would have been diminished.
Consequently, there must be a door to stop all suffering, and that is through come to the door and leader of God and the holy book that through he recites God's signs and proves the proper wisdom.
Counter argument to above:
He could force humans to guidance and make the issue of guidance clear so no one denies.
Counter argument:
....etc, etc....
As you see this gone and on and on.
But it's the thinking and reflecting that solves the issue.
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 14, 2017 at 8:48 am
(This post was last modified: November 14, 2017 at 8:49 am by bennyboy.)
(November 13, 2017 at 7:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Consequences when we disobeyed God and the perfect system and balance are for our own benefit only when we are rebellious and disobey.
God didn't create suffering, rather, it's a consequence of sin, and is to negate a greater suffering.
So God didn't know that man would disobey him? Seems pretty. . . limited. Almost like He didn't have a plan. . . or couldn't bring it properly to fruition. OR that God is both Good and Evil, and is fine with sin, with suffering, and with casting souls into damnation.
Or doesn't exist cuz fairytale.
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 14, 2017 at 10:59 am
MysticKnight Wrote:The argument is not stating all suffering is incompatible with a benevolent creator. It's stating some of suffering is unnecessary and doesn't bring about a greater good. Example, multiple personalities.
I don't believe "since sufferring exists, then benevolent creator does not", that's too general. Neither do I believe the argument "There is too much sufferring..." because that is too subjective.
What I'm stating is that it seems, that some suffering is unnecessary for the system to bring about a greater good (character building) and doesn't do so.
I think think this is a stronger version of the argument, and classical theodicy doesn't address it.
The question of the problem of evil regarding theodicy is 'which leg of the tripod of theodicy are you willing to shorten?'. Drich shortens the omnibenevolence. However, one could shorten the leg of omnipotence. God created the universe and is very powerful and wise, but didn't foresee all the suffering that would result from creating the universe, and the universe is vast and God is doing the best that he can to reduce suffering given that he's not quite omnipotent and operates under strictures that we're not in a position to understand.
If I were a believer, I would prefer that version of God.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 14, 2017 at 12:47 pm
(This post was last modified: November 14, 2017 at 12:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The problem of evil isn't a problem for gods...it's a problem for human satisfaction with gods. Most gods escape the POE by default, but, by the littered heap of dead gods behind us and limping gods before us....most gods don't satisfy.
This thread serves as another wonderful example. Dissatisfied with the god presented by magic book, some seek to modify or alter the narrative by argumentation so that it does not portray that god for what it is. Small, incompetent, and more than anything..perhaps the most important thing...just plain ugly.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 14, 2017 at 1:37 pm
(November 13, 2017 at 7:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I wanted to bump this, because, this is the best form of the argument of evil I can come up with.
Yet I can explain how this is an argument from ignorance like all other versions of the problem of evil.
And if we get passed that perhaps, I will give a response to the question, which I posed many years ago.
Actually, I can rephrase the argument in OP:
God would not create suffering without any benefit in some way or another, to the over all system or particular person, that cannot be achieved except with this suffering.
If God exists, then God did create suffering without any benefit but rather harmed more so than it benefited, and the benefit could have been created through a different means.
Therefore God can't exist.
I can rebute this very easily:
God gave us a perfect system without suffering.
Consequences when we disobeyed God and the perfect system and balance are for our own benefit only when we are rebellious and disobey.
God didn't create suffering, rather, it's a consequence of sin, and is to negate a greater suffering.
Counter argument:
The consequences could have been done in a way that they weren't necessarily the degree of suffering or type of suffering they bring to bring about the good.
Counter to counter argument:
The consequence naturally must be distasteful and evil, and something humans want to get rid of. The degree of suffering must cause us pain to achieve the result.
Without the degree and various type of suffering, humans who oppress others, would feel more arrogant, the oppressed more complicit to their oppression, and the fear of death and tribulations that keep us on edge from sinning would have been diminished.
Consequently, there must be a door to stop all suffering, and that is through come to the door and leader of God and the holy book that through he recites God's signs and proves the proper wisdom.
Counter argument to above:
He could force humans to guidance and make the issue of guidance clear so no one denies.
Counter argument:
....etc, etc....
As you see this gone and on and on.
But it's the thinking and reflecting that solves the issue.
Have one on the house!
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 14, 2017 at 3:31 pm
(November 13, 2017 at 7:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I wanted to bump this, because, this is the best form of the argument of evil I can come up with.
Yet I can explain how this is an argument from ignorance like all other versions of the problem of evil.
And if we get passed that perhaps, I will give a response to the question, which I posed many years ago.
Actually, I can rephrase the argument in OP:
God would not create suffering without any benefit in some way or another, to the over all system or particular person, that cannot be achieved except with this suffering.
If God exists, then God did create suffering without any benefit but rather harmed more so than it benefited, and the benefit could have been created through a different means.
Therefore God can't exist.
I can rebute this very easily:
God gave us a perfect system without suffering.
Consequences when we disobeyed God and the perfect system and balance are for our own benefit only when we are rebellious and disobey.
God didn't create suffering, rather, it's a consequence of sin, and is to negate a greater suffering.
Counter argument:
The consequences could have been done in a way that they weren't necessarily the degree of suffering or type of suffering they bring to bring about the good.
Counter to counter argument:
The consequence naturally must be distasteful and evil, and something humans want to get rid of. The degree of suffering must cause us pain to achieve the result.
Without the degree and various type of suffering, humans who oppress others, would feel more arrogant, the oppressed more complicit to their oppression, and the fear of death and tribulations that keep us on edge from sinning would have been diminished.
Consequently, there must be a door to stop all suffering, and that is through come to the door and leader of God and the holy book that through he recites God's signs and proves the proper wisdom.
Counter argument to above:
He could force humans to guidance and make the issue of guidance clear so no one denies.
Counter argument:
....etc, etc....
As you see this gone and on and on.
But it's the thinking and reflecting that solves the issue.
Good to see you can argue with yourself and strawman others at the same time.
Of course, your argument still boils down to the ends justifying the means no matter how horrific the means become. That's still bullshit no matter how you dress it up
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 14, 2017 at 11:41 pm
(November 14, 2017 at 8:48 am)bennyboy Wrote: (November 13, 2017 at 7:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Consequences when we disobeyed God and the perfect system and balance are for our own benefit only when we are rebellious and disobey.
God didn't create suffering, rather, it's a consequence of sin, and is to negate a greater suffering.
So God didn't know that man would disobey him?
No, and certainly did not know we would disobey him to this extent and all odds were that we would not. The worst has happened it seems, and we are dealing with a perfect system with the worse results in a perfect system.
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RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
November 15, 2017 at 5:12 am
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 5:13 am by WinterHold.)
(November 14, 2017 at 11:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (November 14, 2017 at 8:48 am)bennyboy Wrote: So God didn't know that man would disobey him?
No, and certainly did not know we would disobey him to this extent and all odds were that we would not. The worst has happened it seems, and we are dealing with a perfect system with the worse results in a perfect system.
A God like that is quite weak, if he doesn't know the future; then how dare he claims superiority over the creations?
That behavior indicates ignorance in the nature of what he himself created; and ignorance is enough to erase the justification of righteousness in the crusade he waged against his creations.
Actually; that's a pretty unstable tyrant, that creates things he isn't sure about their behavior; or future moves. Getting angry if they went against his expectations. That looks more of a pile of emotional confusion that needs education and anger management.
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