Prayer?

[Undeceived]

There appears to me to be three categories of prayer. In no particular order, one is the "help me find my car keys" type, which is actually related to the "help, I'm trapped in a burning building" form of prayer when a person finds themselves in dire straits. Out of the three kinds, this is the only one which can be said to have any practical benefit; not because of any divine intervention, but merely by taking a minute to catch your breath and allowing your subconscious to work on the problem, yielding the missing item or the solution to overcome the situation.

Next we have the social brinksmanship prayer which exists purely to allow a person to announce their intention to pray, or in other words to provide every form of help to someone short of actually providing any form of help. It can also carry the message that "I consider some aspect of your life to be broken and/or not up to my standards so I'm just letting you know how superior you make me feel."

The third type of prayer is the one which is relevant to the McCann scenario, the one born of desperation. It's the favourite of fundies who use it as the basis for their "no atheists in foxholes" canard. I can think of no better way of illustrating it than by your words: "Please God. I just want my little girl back. I know I've not been the best father in the world... there hasn't been a moment I haven't regreted letting her out my sight. My wife... she can't cope with any of this. Neither of us have slept for what feels like months. Without her... theres just no point for either us. If theres one thing, just one you do for me then let it be this... don't let her be gone... don't let her be dead. I don't care how, I don't care at what cost. Guide her back to me, I beg of you. Amen."

The person resorting to this category of prayer may not necessarily be expecting an actual intervention; it's a genuinely heartfelt expression of grief and loss and longing. Sadly, the response rate of such petitions is a result of pure random chance, all else being equal.

Or there's the prayer we should be praying: "Your will be done." If we conform our desires to God's will, our prayers will always be answered. It's healthier to change an outlook than it is to blindly hope for gifts. We need to meet God partway, becoming "Sons", rather than treating Him as an arbitrary vending machine.

[Reforged]

There appears to me to be three categories of prayer. In no particular order, one is the "help me find my car keys" type, which is actually related to the "help, I'm trapped in a burning building" form of prayer when a person finds themselves in dire straits. Out of the three kinds, this is the only one which can be said to have any practical benefit; not because of any divine intervention, but merely by taking a minute to catch your breath and allowing your subconscious to work on the problem, yielding the missing item or the solution to overcome the situation.

Next we have the social brinksmanship prayer which exists purely to allow a person to announce their intention to pray, or in other words to provide every form of help to someone short of actually providing any form of help. It can also carry the message that "I consider some aspect of your life to be broken and/or not up to my standards so I'm just letting you know how superior you make me feel."

The third type of prayer is the one which is relevant to the McCann scenario, the one born of desperation. It's the favourite of fundies who use it as the basis for their "no atheists in foxholes" canard. I can think of no better way of illustrating it than by your words: "Please God. I just want my little girl back. I know I've not been the best father in the world... there hasn't been a moment I haven't regreted letting her out my sight. My wife... she can't cope with any of this. Neither of us have slept for what feels like months. Without her... theres just no point for either us. If theres one thing, just one you do for me then let it be this... don't let her be gone... don't let her be dead. I don't care how, I don't care at what cost. Guide her back to me, I beg of you. Amen."

The person resorting to this category of prayer may not necessarily be expecting an actual intervention; it's a genuinely heartfelt expression of grief and loss and longing. Sadly, the response rate of such petitions is a result of pure random chance, all else being equal.

Or there's the prayer we should be praying: "Your will be done." If we conform our desires to God's will, our prayers will always be answered. It's healthier to change an outlook than it is to blindly hope for gifts. We need to meet God partway, becoming "Sons", rather than treating Him as an arbitrary vending machine.

... are you joking?
I mean I need to ask because that may well be one of the most unarguably idiotic things I've ever read.
It raises so many other questions like "What is Gods will?", "Wouldn't Gods will occur anyway?", "Whats the point in praying?", "How do you prove prayer has worked?", "Are you mentally handicapped?"
I'm having trouble taking this in, do you understand? I might well die from the overdose of stupidity that is coming through my screen.
My doctor kept warning me "Richie, Richie. For fuck sake. How many times are you going to humor complete morons? Its not doing your blood pressure any good. You're 22 and you have the arteries of a fucking 60 year old. Just take a break ok? Stop being so nice to them and let out alittle venom occasionally."
And I'm trying that right now but I've got to be honest, its not doing me much good because what you just suggested is *so* mindless, *so* retarded that I may well be able to find people in insane asylums who have discerned more sense by smearing indecipherable messages in their own feces on the walls of their padded cells.
You are an idiot is essentially the crux of what I am saying.

[Undeceived]

Or there's the prayer we should be praying: "Your will be done." If we conform our desires to God's will, our prayers will always be answered. It's healthier to change an outlook than it is to blindly hope for gifts. We need to meet God partway, becoming "Sons", rather than treating Him as an arbitrary vending machine.

... are you joking?

Let's put it this way. You're a father. Your 2-year-old son refuses to change his mind about anything, ever. You plead with him, telling him you are more experienced and know what's best for him. He demands ice cream every day, won't thank you for it, and is quickly becoming the most unhealthy child on the planet. What would you (God) do?

"What is Gods will?", "Wouldn't Gods will occur anyway?"

In our case, God's will is what He knows is best for us. Our free will allows us to do something different entirely. The outcome will be negative.
There is a broader "will" of God, which basically means nothing will happen without God seeing and allowing it.

[Reforged]

... are you joking?

Let's put it this way. You're a father. Your 2-year-old son refuses to change his mind about anything, ever. You plead with him, telling him you are more experienced and know what's best for him. He demands ice cream every day, won't thank you for it, and is quickly becoming the most unhealthy child on the planet. What would you (God) do?

Right ok, lets replace the childs demand for ice-cream, which by the way is a rather stupid comparison but whatever, with "Help me Daddy, I'm dying from starvation and aids in a poverty stricken country."
What then?

"What is Gods will?", "Wouldn't Gods will occur anyway?"

In our case, God's will is what He knows is best for us. Our free will allows us to do something different entirely. The outcome will be negative.
There is a broader "will" of God, which basically means nothing will happen without God seeing and allowing it.

Are you basically saying without any kind of irony or proof that Gods will is basically whatever takes place? Like if I turn a tap and water comes out thats basically because Gods will deems it so?
Because if so I'm going to have to phone my legal representatives and see if theres anyway I can legally prevent you from pro-creating and then neuter you regardless of their response.

[Cyberman]

Or there's the prayer we should be praying: "Your will be done." If we conform our desires to God's will, our prayers will always be answered. It's healthier to change an outlook than it is to blindly hope for gifts. We need to meet God partway, becoming "Sons", rather than treating Him as an arbitrary vending machine.

That's just arse-kissing, which is to praying what Justin Bieber is to music. Remember the schooldays scene in Monty Python's Meaning of Life? Those of us who saw it, I mean. There's a chaplain-led prayer in the school assembly, along the lines of "Oh Lord, ooh you are so big, we're all really impressed down here I can tell you..."

But if you still want to cling onto the security blanket of your god's will (not to mention a god to have a will), then you cannot honestly dodge the following considerations:

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

[Thor]

Let's put it this way. You're a father. Your 2-year-old son refuses to change his mind about anything, ever. You plead with him, telling him you are more experienced and know what's best for him. He demands ice cream every day, won't thank you for it, and is quickly becoming the most unhealthy child on the planet. What would you (God) do?

Crappy analogy. I can actually appear to my child and speak with him. Your deity doesn't ever appear and speak.

[Cyberman]

If I take that analogy as it stands, and I am not only a god but God to a two-year-old child (which on the face of it is gibberish but I acknowledge that child is meant to represent god-defying humans), then I must answer the question you pose: what would I as God do? My answer: nothing; except watch as the child continually disobeys the commands that others tell him are from me - note I never speak nor interact with him in any way whatsoever and certainly don't "plead with him" (I'm God, for My sake!). Alternatively, I watch while the child matures in both physical and intellectual stature and figures the world out for himself.

Here's a deeply observational and satirical take on this whole mess, taken from the pages of very adult comic Viz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vRYV7JKFU0?rel=0

[ElDinero]

You see guys, if you pray for what you want, it doesn't work. If you pray for what God is already going to make happen regardless, it works all the time! I feel such a fool for not getting this before.

What a fucking tool Undeceived is.

[Undeceived]

... are you joking?

Let's put it this way. You're a father. Your 2-year-old son refuses to change his mind about anything, ever. You plead with him, telling him you are more experienced and know what's best for him. He demands ice cream every day, won't thank you for it, and is quickly becoming the most unhealthy child on the planet. What would you (God) do?

Right ok, lets replace the childs demand for ice-cream, which by the way is a rather stupid comparison but whatever, with "Help me Daddy, I'm dying from starvation and aids in a poverty stricken country."
What then?

You're still demanding physical, trivial things. God, our Father, provides for our spiritual needs. It is as if the child is seeking toys like legos for his own personal world in his room, as opposed to real life necessities. Life is in place to point us to God. Sufferings are only as bad as your feelings about them--until they reach the point where you die. And death is just the beginning of eternity in heaven. What's more, once we get to heaven we'll realize how many "sufferings" we had every day, just in different form. You look at famine and consider it worse than whatever you experience. Ask a poor individual if they feel their lives are multiplicatively tougher. On what do you base your standard for a good life? Do you consider your American life better, and are you more content for it? Why do studies show many impoverished families to be happier than millionaires? Or is it your outlook that matters? Your feelings and expectations are like glasses through which you see the world. If we don't worry our next meal, we find something else to worry and stress about, like how irritating a co-worker is. Shouldn't we just be grateful to have a job? You expect an African family to be grateful. The moment an African family steps into an American lifestyle, their standards change. They become dissatisfied with the quality of their schools or how far a drive work is. Now turn this African family into Billionaires. Their mint coat ripped, and they're shouting at the dry cleaner for being so klutzy! Their Ferrari was keyed last night. Oh dear, we need to get it repaired first thing in the morning! Even if everyone on this forum comes from similar circumstances, you can't use that common condition as a basis for what life should be. "Our way" is not "the way." Just how few sufferings would it take for you to entertain the notion of a good God? Everyone middle-income? All of us sitting on plush chairs drinking magically-appearing slurpies? Draw a line. How far must God interfere with the free order of things to be considered worth worshiping?
The problem with debating "sufferings" is the assumed definition of what a suffering is. You pick massive human needs like starvation and poverty in an attempt to get me on common ground. The discussion would be more fruitful with terms like "earthly contentment" and "spiritual fulfillment." I hope I've made it clear that anybody, even a poor and hungry person, can be content on earth. And everyone can find spiritual fulfillment in Christ's death and resurrection.

[Lion IRC]

I'm always baffled by atheists who bring children into this world where, apparently, there is a so-called "problem" of pain.

Why would they do that?