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Sae you know that given the cultural charge given into sex as an intimate thing, its a great way to hurt people and exert control over them by sexually subduing the victim. I never said it was the only way to exert control over someone.
My point: Most rapes are 75% control and power over someone, being the 25% left to sexuality. Hence why ou have loads of sexually accomplished people raping.
August 11, 2012 at 2:36 pm (This post was last modified: August 11, 2012 at 2:36 pm by Creed of Heresy.)
(August 11, 2012 at 2:14 pm)Napoleon Wrote:
(August 11, 2012 at 1:55 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: So does the urge come naturally to you? As naturally as picking your nose?
It obviously comes naturally to some people, hence why there are people out there who rape. Duh.
Quote: I'm pretty sure the urge to pick my nose comes up far more often than the urge to commit a rape, if I pick my nose only once in my life.
Missing the point. Again I'll ask for you to define natural, because nothing you are saying is making it any less so.
Quote: And I'm pretty sure that the same could be said of the vast majority of human beings.
So what, if only one monkey out of a million decides to shit on the floor, it doesn't make that monkey's act of shitting on the floor any less natural.
Quote:The reasons given for why rape occurs in the wild, are to prevent genetic extinction, as I stated before. Bottom of the barrel, no hope of getting laid members of the pack. Yet with human beings it's something that seems to come the fuck from nowhere. It's been seen to happen from and across all walks of life.
How does this make it any less natural?
Quote: The human mind is more advanced. It makes decisions based on information. It doesn't run off of instinct AS much. I'm not saying it is devoid of instinct, far from it, we still operate from it in many ways, but it has higher thought processes beyond just survival, yes? So, if nature is the argument for why rape occurs, then how come it is occurring in ways where a biological imperative such as the one posited by scientists is not present??
You obviously have a misunderstanding of the thought process with which any and all animals decide to commit rape. It's not a reasoned decision, it's an instinctual one. I would think this be rather obvious.
Knowing that, how does your point have any relevance?
Quote: Married men committing rape? Clearly they have a mating source allocated.
I'm still failing to see why this makes it any less natural.
Quote:Men who are attractive, hell, men whose jobs are to fuck attractive women on camera commit rape. Where does that come from?? What "natural" biological impulse says "well you're mating through normal means, BUT FUCK IT, over-ride that shit, and FORCE it on others!" What sense does THAT make, exactly? There's no "natural" explanation for it. A social one, sure, but a natural one? No.
It doesn't make sense, who says it has to make sense for it to be natural?
"No natural explanation"
Seems to me you either have a really big misconception of what natural is, or you have drawn conclusions from your own ignorance. I'm sure biologists and psychologists would disagree with you.
You sound like a creationist who is ignorant of the evidence for evolution, saying that there is no evidence of evolution.
At the risk of being patronising, I already know you get caught up very emotionally in arguments CoH, I find you're doing it again.
Take away the emotional response that rape obviously has, and look at it objectively.
You may be right. But that's how I roll. Start the discussion and build my information and opinion on it from what other people say.
You'd be surprised how much I learn from that. You learn more from being wrong than being right, after all. I'd rather lose a debate than win one any day cuz I can learn from it.
I think what I am going for here is a sort of objective naturalism, that it's not hardwired into humanity as a whole because it is such an aberration and such a hated thing, that it's not natural to humanity in general, only to the individuals, and that it "comes naturally," yeah, but that as a biological, genetic imperative for survival, it most definitely is not. THAT was the argument being made by the other individual: That rape is natural in the sense of it being adaptive to humanity as a means for survival. And given how and why rape is committed among humans, I find that notion to be ridiculous.
(August 11, 2012 at 2:46 pm)whateverist Wrote: In the interest of science, I'm willing to rape who ever wants to know.
I don't think 'who ever wants to know' would like that, in fact I could no longer find the name on the member list. I don't think you should go around intimidating other members like that.
(August 11, 2012 at 1:26 pm)LastPoet Wrote: On other news, rape threads always end badly.
Actually, Yes 100% right. The subject is not talked about properly because the definitions are all over the place, so it just gets into a dissatisfying mess of 'I meant this not that', or jokes which will start to seem to belittle the subject, time for me to walk away I think.
As it has pointed out, just because something is "natural" does not make it okay, and this is why the defense of rape as a "natural" occurrence does not mean it is justifiable.
I have a feeling that anyone who is using this argument is doing so in a facetious manner to highlight what they see as the problem against saying homosexuality is natural. The difference here is that one of the arguments against homosexuality is that it is unnatural and therefore against god's will, and as we all know, it occurs in nature fairly often. The argument that homosexuality is natural is merely a response to a claim made by the other side, and it is not intended to justify it by equating natural with morally good.
Yes, humans are animals, albeit the highest on the hirearchy of intellectual capacity, and most likely the human desire to rape is a leftover effect of our instinctive desire to pass on our genetic material. This, however, says nothing about whether it is morally good or bad, which is where the argument that rape is "natural" falls flat.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
August 11, 2012 at 3:21 pm (This post was last modified: August 11, 2012 at 3:23 pm by LastPoet.)
(August 11, 2012 at 3:12 pm)jonb Wrote: Actually, Yes 100% right. The subject is not talked about properly because the definitions are all over the place, so it just gets into a dissatisfying mess of 'I meant this not that', or jokes which will start to seem to belittle the subject, time for me to walk away I think.
I agree, shall we go to our respective pubs ol'chap?
(August 11, 2012 at 1:42 pm)Napoleon Wrote: Define natural.
I answered yes.
My understanding of what is 'natural' would suggest that rape is natural.
An overwhelming amount of species in the wild commit rape, including our closest relatives chimpanzees. I refuse your notion that humans are not animals. It's an incredibly arrogant idea IMO, the kind of idea that religious fundies would love to believe so that they can say evolution is false.
Just because we have a moral compass that tells us it's not nice, doesn't make it any less natural than picking your nose.
Wait.
Did you vote yes before joining the discussion about the definition of ''natural"?
