Who's the most prominent Christian on this forum?

[Undeceived]

It's the same old trite argument that has been circulating for centuries. I have an answer to it

Let's hear it. Why is the Christian God not the best conclusion for his points?
-complexity of the cell
-fine-tuning of the universe
-depth of human evil
-fact of morality
-reality of morality in the world
-purpose of human reason and search for truth

[Minimalist]

First off, you have no evidence that your god....or any god...exists. Give me a shout when/if you do. Until then you may as well go shit in your hat.

[greneknight]

It's the same old trite argument that has been circulating for centuries. I have an answer to it

Let's hear it. Why is the Christian God not the best conclusion for his points?
-complexity of the cell
-fine-tuning of the universe
-depth of human evil
-fact of morality
-reality of morality in the world
-purpose of human reason and search for truth

It's raining now and I have 20 mins before it's ok to cycle. I'll answer you briefly. If you want a full debate, we can arrange for a formal debate and I'll be happy to take you on. I'll deal with your points briefly:

-complexity of the cell

No big deal. It used to be that people say the human eye was irreducibly complex and so voila! God must have made it. It was subsequently found that the simpler eye which we thought could serve no purpose and couldn't have existed exists in some organisms and they're perfectly functioning. Irreducible complexity is bunkum - the language of my fellow believers who refuse to see the light.


-fine-tuning of the universe

This is laughable. We ask about fine-tuning because we happen to live in such a universe. If the universe had not formed in a manner to support life and collapsed and another big bang happened, what's the big deal. Just wait until finally a big bang happens in a manner where things appear fine-tuned and life can form and then someone is going to say fine tuning is caused by a creator. You see my point. I also read somewhere that the constants aren't so do-or-die. Apparently if you don't have the same constants, it may very well be that the universe would take a very different state from what we are used to and other forms could take shape and intelligent life forms that evolved in such a different universe will say theirs are the only constants that could support life and have a "stable" universe.

-depth of human evil

What in God's name can that have any bearing on whether God exists? An evil T-Rex is proof that God exists? Oh, for crying out loud!

-fact of morality

Same as above. What about morality that allows you to say, "Voila! God exists!!!!"

-reality of morality in the world

Again, what's the relevance? You got a problem with morality? You keep repeating yourself. I suggest you see my vicar for confession. He says confession can be therapeutic. It treats the mind and you think it treats the soul but that's ok.

-purpose of human reason and search for truth

I have searched for the truth and I know the Bible isn't the truth. I know religion isn't truth. Religion is antithetical to truth. But we love religion for it acts as a cultural compass.

Purpose of human reason? That's a cart-before-the-horse reasoning. I don't know the philosophical term (such as ad hom, etc) but in Sir Greneknight's language, it's the cart-before-the-horse reasoning. You first decide that God is supreme. You decide that the purpose for EVERYTHING is to glorify God (although I haven't the foggiest why God needs glorifying so badly). And then you CREATE a purpose for everything, starting with human reason and voila! the purpose of human reason is to discover God and glorify his name. That's a silly argument. When you ask about purpose, it's a loaded question. To say something has a purpose is to suggest there is some intelligent force out there that created the purpose. That's putting the cart before the horse. That's the ridiculous unfairness of many Christian arguments and what irks me is the fact that adults should have known better than to go on such an argument.

Cheers,

Sir Greneknight, Knight of the Order of the Round Table.

[Minimalist]

But we love religion for it acts as a cultural compass.

That depends a lot on where you are.

[Undeceived]

-complexity of the cell

No big deal. It used to be that people say the human eye was irreducibly complex and so voila! God must have made it. It was subsequently found that the simpler eye which we thought could serve no purpose and couldn't have existed exists in some organisms and they're perfectly functioning. Irreducible complexity is bunkum - the language of my fellow believers who refuse to see the light.

Where is this 'simpler eye'? For a long time the trilobite eye was considered the earliest and simplest version of the eye. Even it is irreducibly complex: http://www.create.ab.ca/the-trilobite-ey...ex-design/
Has another been discovered? Or are Evolutionists simply imagining how a simpler eye might work?

-fine-tuning of the universe

This is laughable. We ask about fine-tuning because we happen to live in such a universe. If the universe had not formed in a manner to support life and collapsed and another big bang happened, what's the big deal. Just wait until finally a big bang happens in a manner where things appear fine-tuned and life can form and then someone is going to say fine tuning is caused by a creator. You see my point. I also read somewhere that the constants aren't so do-or-die. Apparently if you don't have the same constants, it may very well be that the universe would take a very different state from what we are used to and other forms could take shape and intelligent life forms that evolved in such a different universe will say theirs are the only constants that could support life and have a "stable" universe.

On the contrary, many Evolutionists today claim Evolution was bound more or less to one inevitable path. Carbon and H2O are the vital elements of life. Their bonding properties and states of matter make life trillions of times more likely to have chosen them as its ingredients--as indeed it has. Our earth is conveniently fine-tuned to Carbon and H2O forms of life.

-depth of human evil

What in God's name can that have any bearing on whether God exists? An evil T-Rex is proof that God exists? Oh, for crying out loud!

Evolution believes were are survival-based organisms. As the man explained, animals do not desire to inflict pain apart from survival purposes. Why do humans?

-fact of morality

Same as above. What about morality that allows you to say, "Voila! God exists!!!!"

In the debate he used an illustration of a man giving up his seat for an old lady he didn’t know. Or helping children in third-world countries. As survival-driven organisms, we should have the tendency to compete against our own species. If the person on the receiving end of altruism does not carry your genes or give you any kickback, there is no reason for you to help them. In fact, you are fighting the evolutionary process. Genes of weaker, pitiable humans are passed on. In the case of the old lady, not at all. Why would we retain a 'morality' mutation that drives our species backwards?

-purpose of human reason and search for truth

Purpose of human reason? That's a cart-before-the-horse reasoning.

Sorry. By purpose I meant the reason we have human reason and a desire for truth. Without God in the picture we are animals geared for survival. We seek only wants and needs. A desire for truth does not aid our survival. A gorilla does not look beneath the surface for hidden truths, gauging other gorillas for lies. It sees and reacts. Everything it sees is true. And if it wanted any additional information it would lose sight of what's really important--propagation. This goes back to the depth of human evil. By constantly deceiving one another to get the upper hand, we are hurting our species. If we did not lie or cheat, Evolution would be better off. Neither would Evolution have to produce morality to fix its mistake.

[System of Solace]

I'm going to quickly intrude on this debate.

A shockofgod video. The same moron who keeps asking "Give me proof that atheism is true" (yes, that's what he said) and ignores answers he receives. I believe at least 5 of his videos had the title "ARMA 2 THE MOST REALISTIC WAR GAME UNTIL ARMA 3" with different wording each time. He also censors comments and blocks users, like most Christian youtubers. He takes every debate that in his opinion a Christian "wins" and parades it around on his channel. His own videos consist of him riding a motorcycle and stealing arguments from places like Conservapedia like venomfangx did to William Lane Craig. I've also heard he is a bigot, although I haven't seen that proven.

I'm also very convinced that Hitchens helped spread Christianity when he wrote God is not Great and completely destroyed almost every theist who ever opposed him.

[Anomalocaris]

For the OP, what do you mean the most prominent?

The most loud mouthed? The most laugh inducing? Or the most contemptible?

[System of Solace]

For the OP, what do you mean the most prominent?

The most loud mouthed? The most laugh inducing? Or the most contemptible?

The most intelligent one, the best debater, or the most respected one.

I'm fairly new, so all I see is that Lion IRC guy or whatever his name is.

[ib.me.ub]

Rayaan or Frodo I would say.

[KichigaiNeko]

Rayaan is Muslim. But if you mean theist... then yes Rayaan is the first.