Who's the most prominent Christian on this forum?

[FallentoReason]

Although I appreciate your honesty, you do hold a very frustrating position.

I'll bet you don't apply this to any other aspect of your life, or any other supernatural claim. It is an amazing feat of mental compartmentalization that you are able to do this.

Shiva. Bronze Age tribal deity. No evidence or rational justification to believe he exists. I don't believe it. Check.

Ahura Mazda. Bronze Age tribal deity. No evidence or rational justification to believe he exists. I don't believe it. Check.

Yahweh. Bronze Age tribal deity. No evidence or rational justification to believe he exists. I don't believe it. Che.....

Suppose there were a Bronze Age religion that claimed that certain entities existed in the sky that devoured light and crushed everything--ala a black hole. Let's say that Bob lived back then, but didn't have any tools for measuring things like red-light shifts and so forth, so he couldn't actually detect the presence of a black hole.

Should Bob believe in the existence of black holes, which actually do exist? Or should he refuse to believe in their existence?

Bob is free to excercise faith if he wants. However, Bob's future generations aka 21st century folk, are able to go back and analyse the claims being made. What you belive in then depends on what you're after.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Dogma - what's so bad about it?

To accept dogma is to accept something as true because it comes from authority,(such as the Bible) not from evidence. One may not argue against dogma. If you reject ANY Church dogma (even in the C of E) you are automatically excommunicate.(ask your priest) Dogma is also anti science; this is demonstrated whenever science contradicts dogma.

parasitic clergy - you mean RC paedophile priests? Don't know much about them. Jail them I say.

A parasite may also be a paedophile ,but not necessarily. A parasite is a creature or plant which lives of another,sometimes killing it. Clergy leech off the body civil.

obscene wealth - RC only. The Church of England is quite poor.

Nowhere did I sate I was referring only to the C of E or even Christianity. However, perhaps have a little look at what the C of E actually owns ,starting with churches,cathedrals and land. My position is that all of those things should belong to the communities which paid for them or to the state.

abuse of power - that's ancient history. By tradition, our bishops sit in the House of Lords. But there's no abuse of power. If you object to that, you probably object to the monarchy too but that's nothing to do with religion.

Religions still interfere in politics on a macro and micro level.: Have look at the lunar religious right in the US. Plus the insistence of Christianity and Islam especially in trying to impose their beliefs and values on others .

The Catholic Church: The Vatican is recognised as a state. Although the only non voting member of the UN,it sits on many committees and panels where it ALWAYS pushes The Church position. The official church position is that church/canon law trumps civil law. THAT is the basis the child abuse scandals in Christian churches. (including C of E) That and insisting on protecting the institution at the expense of its most vulnerable members.

[Norfolk And Chance]

There is absolutely no evidence or rational justification for God or faith. Many Christians hate to admit this but it's true. I honestly believe all Christians KNOW this is true but they just don't dare to admit it to themselves. And they don't dare to debate on it either. They know they haven't got a leg to stand on.

You are going to drive me insane if you keep repeating stuff like this!

I don't understand how you can continue to be a Christian.

He's an atheist.

He either a) doesn't understand he's atheist yet, or b) is an atheist poe.

[greneknight]

To accept dogma is to accept something as true because it comes from authority,(such as the Bible) not from evidence. One may not argue against dogma. If you reject ANY Church dogma (even in the C of E) you are automatically excommunicate.(ask your priest) Dogma is also anti science; this is demonstrated whenever science contradicts dogma.

I just told you about the Virgin Birth which is a dogma by any standard. I just told you about what the Archbishop of Canterbury said. I think you have totally mistaken the CoE for the RC.

A parasite may also be a paedophile ,but not necessarily. A parasite is a creature or plant which lives of another,sometimes killing it. Clergy leech off the body civil.

That's what some people say about the monarchy. Obviously a cultural issue.

Nowhere did I sate I was referring only to the C of E or even Christianity. However, perhaps have a little look at what the C of E actually owns ,starting with churches,cathedrals and land. My position is that all of those things should belong to the communities which paid for them or to the state.

I don't think anyone paid for the church buildings. Most of them were forcibly taken over by the monarchy from the RCs at one time. Today, donations are collected from people but people are free not to give if they don't value our cultural heritage. It's a free world.

Religions still interfere in politics on a macro and micro level.: Have look at the lunar religious right in the US. Plus the insistence of Christianity and Islam especially in trying to impose their beliefs and values on others .

I can't answer for American insanity. I was told half of Americans believe God created the whole universe 10,000 years ago. I think America needs to build a HUGE mental hospital.

The Catholic Church: The Vatican is recognised as a state. Although the only non voting member of the UN,it sits on many committees and panels where it ALWAYS pushes The Church position. The official church position is that church/canon law trumps civil law. THAT is the basis the child abuse scandals in Christian churches. (including C of E) That and insisting on protecting the institution at the expense of its most vulnerable members.

No, when you say "including C of E" you clearly don't know a thing about my church. The rules written out in Vatican in the 1960s that require the vow of secrecy to be taken on pain of excommunication by all victims of abuse and all the other impediments thrown by the rules on proper justice are UNIQUE to the RC church. Many people are honestly mistaken about the CoE. We're not at all like the RC. If you advocate the banning of the RC religion, I can see grounds for that. It has caused a great deal of harm to mankind. In most debates about whether the church is a force for good (I'm thinking of the one Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry participated in), every bad is directly attributable to the RC church. They are really the black sheep of Christianity. Even Richard Dawkins has said that the CoE is a "benign religion".

[Undeceived]

There is absolutely no evidence or rational justification for God or faith. Many Christians hate to admit this but it's true. I honestly believe all Christians KNOW this is true but they just don't dare to admit it to themselves. And they don't dare to debate on it either.

Can I ask what your definitions of evidence and rationality are?
I believe our God is the God of reason. And that evidence can be found in His creation. I invite you to watch this debate, starting at 27:30 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...mCdi6bO_Tk#!

[Lion IRC]

Thanks Undeceived.
Rest in Peace Mr Hitchens.

[greneknight]

There is absolutely no evidence or rational justification for God or faith. Many Christians hate to admit this but it's true. I honestly believe all Christians KNOW this is true but they just don't dare to admit it to themselves. And they don't dare to debate on it either.

Can I ask what your definitions of evidence and rationality are?
I believe our God is the God of reason. And that evidence can be found in His creation. I invite you to watch this debate, starting at 27:30 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...mCdi6bO_Tk#!

Hi Undeceived,

I saw the video from the point you suggested - 27:00 onwards and the chap looks like Dinesh D'Souza. He sounds like him, I can't seem to recognise him. HIs voice and accent sounds like D'Souza anyway. I hate to say this but what he's arguing on is nothing new. It's the same old trite argument that has been circulating for centuries. I have an answer to it and I have debated on this before and got banned in Christian Forums (I'm determined not to return there; I think this forum is more balanced and fairer). I have seen many debates on youtube and I know the answer to what he has raised. It's nothing new. If Christopher Hitchens didn't answer his points, it's nothing new. I don't like Hitchens' debates - in the debates I have seen him on, I fear he never addressed the points raised. But Hitchens' weakness is not the strength of theism.

I have to go now. I'm taking my bicycle out to meet a friend for lunch (yes, it's lunch time in this country I'm in when it's the witching hour for the rest of you in England).

But basically, Dinesh has raised the usual points - origin of life and fine-tuning. I stopped there. Earlier, he mentioned dark matter. That's typical of theists. Raising aspects of science that are new and not yet totally understood and going "voila! God's hiding behind the dark matter, don't you see?"

If you really want to debate on the origin of life - and I will argue why cooking up an omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving, interfering God is not the best answer. You see, one of the tricks I find Christians love to make is when they're arguing the existence of God, they want to leave out the PROPERTIES of God. They think it's sufficient to argue for the existence of a Deist God. Craig does that all the time. He will say we are not arguing about the Bible or even Christianity. But I won't have that. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you think the CHRISTIAN GOD is the best answer to these questions, you can't argue for a Deist God and then make a quantum leap to the Christian God.

I;ve got to take my bike out before it pours!!! In these foreign parts, when it rains it really pours.

[The Grand Nudger]

The next time you refer to christianity as your "cultural heritage" I think I'm going to vomit.... Christianity is nothing more or less than a force of occupation.

[greneknight]

You are going to drive me insane if you keep repeating stuff like this!

I don't understand how you can continue to be a Christian.

He's an atheist.

He either a) doesn't understand he's atheist yet, or b) is an atheist poe.

I KNOW I'm Christian. My vicar recognises me as Christian. And my bishop will be confirming me as a Christian soon - end of this year when I'm back in England. As my vicar once told me, I shouldn't care about what others say I am. If Holy Church, the Bride of Christ says I'm a communicant, I am. The keys to heaven are given to the bishops of my church.

Oh no , it's really dark and going to pour. I have to be off now. Cheerio.

[FallentoReason]

You do realise this:

As my vicar once told me, I shouldn't care about what others say I am.

contradicts this:

If Holy Church, the Bride of Christ says I'm a communicant, I am.

That's nothing new in the world of theism, but you seem to be a rather bright person, so maybe this will make you think just a little bit harder.