Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
So my position that the Universe was not 'created' for the exclusive use of a select group of dead humans on one unremarkable planet supports your pastor's speculation that it was? Maybe I should try a career in the church. I take back any condescension directed at your pastor friend; from what you describe, he seems at least willing to entertain new ideas. Besides, anyone who enjoys Carl Sagan, even watered down versions of his work, can't be all bad.
I don't remember postulating that pondering the implications of 'sin' - a horrible brand name for a faith system I don't share - causes the reader to engage in the practise themselves. What I meant was that in an environment where 'sin' is nonexistent, there will be no lust, blasphemy, killing etc that is the meat and drink of drama. For instance, one of the most ancient of storytelling forms is the Hero's Journey, popularised by the Star Wars franchise (interesting how many of these discussions come back to Star Wars at some point). Without the desire to explore, literally or spiritually, to seek better horizons and improve oneself, or to learn why one doesn't need to, there can be no journey; hence no story. No conflict, no resolution, no drama. The best that can be pondered is the memory of such things.
As for the the last point in my previous, you've really not seen that before? Not even:
(November 7, 2012 at 7:41 am)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Christianity believes that Jesus will return and restore the Earth to what it was like before sin.
God will essentially bring heaven down to Earth and we will live our lives to his glory without sin. It will be like life now, businesses running, sports, entertainment.....but there will be no more sin or suffering and everyone will love the LORD and do all things to his glory. We will be able to worship God in his very near presence and do as He's created us to do for all eternity.
Interestingly there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness.
followed by selected scripture to justify the points? Yes, it's only one opinion by one xtian, which clearly wouldn't apply to all believers, but that's not my problem. I'm in the position of an outsider trying to make sense of sorts of all the loose and contradictory threads.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
(November 7, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Stimbo Wrote: So my position that the Universe was not 'created' for the exclusive use of a select group of dead humans on one unremarkable planet supports your pastor's speculation that it was?
Yes, as your position was based on the vastness of the universe relative to number of humans. If his speculation had been about colonization, you might have a point. As it regarded exploration, though, you don't.
Quote:I don't remember postulating that pondering the implications of 'sin' - a horrible brand name for a faith system I don't share - causes the reader to engage in the practise themselves. What I meant was that in an environment where 'sin' is nonexistent, there will be no lust, blasphemy, killing etc that is the meat and drink of drama.
If such things can be pondered without sinning, then they can still be written about. Plus, you continue to ignore art, music, science, and technology.
Quote:For instance, one of the most ancient of storytelling forms is the Hero's Journey, popularised by the Star Wars franchise (interesting how many of these discussions come back to Star Wars at some point). Without the desire to explore, literally or spiritually, to seek better horizons and improve oneself, or to learn why one doesn't need to, there can be no journey; hence no story. No conflict, no resolution, no drama. The best that can be pondered is the memory of such things.
I'm a bigger fan of the three act structure myself. I happen to be going to a Nanowrimo write-in after work. Either way, if one can contemplate conflict without sinning, books can still be written. If not, there's still art...well, you know the drill by now.
Quote:As for the the last point in my previous, you've really not seen that before?
First, "we've seen" as you used it earlier implies that we've seen it proven. Now you're just using it as we've seen it alleged. Yes, some Christians allege that all we do in heaven is sing to God. I've never seen them prove that position Biblically.
(November 7, 2012 at 7:41 am)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Christianity believes that Jesus will return and restore the Earth to what it was like before sin.
God will essentially bring heaven down to Earth and we will live our lives to his glory without sin. It will be like life now, businesses running, sports, entertainment.....but there will be no more sin or suffering and everyone will love the LORD and do all things to his glory. We will be able to worship God in his very near presence and do as He's created us to do for all eternity.
Interestingly there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness.
Second, this quote doesn't even assert that. Like life now, businesses running, sports, entertainment..." does not indicate people reprogrammed with a single thought, a single desire.
Quote:I'm in the position of an outsider trying to make sense of sorts of all the loose and contradictory threads.
It seems more like you're trying to make nonsense of the varying positions and invent contradictions where they don't exist. THat doesn;t bother me, but let's call a spade a spade.
Actually, I thought my use of the phrase "we've seen" was pretty straightforward, as in "we've seen proposed in this thread", but whatever. As to the contradictions in the positions presented, I don't need to go to the trouble of inventing them. So far they've come pre-contradicted. It's not my fault if they make more nonsense than sense; I merely solicited the comments, I didn't make them.
Clearly the use of phrases such as "there will be no more sin or suffering and everyone will love the LORD and do all things to his glory. We will be able to worship God in his very near presence and do as He's created us to do for all eternity" suggest something different to you than they did to me. That's fine, that's the name of the game. It would be such a dull world if we all agreed with each other, wouldn't it? Sort of the point of what I hoped to get across, really.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
(November 7, 2012 at 5:58 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Actually, I thought my use of the phrase "we've seen" was pretty straightforward, as in "we've seen proposed in this thread", but whatever. As to the contradictions in the positions presented, I don't need to go to the trouble of inventing them. So far they've come pre-contradicted. It's not my fault if they make more nonsense than sense; I merely solicited the comments, I didn't make them.
You haven't noted contradictions, just differences.
Quote:Clearly the use of phrases such as "there will be no more sin or suffering and everyone will love the LORD and do all things to his glory. We will be able to worship God in his very near presence and do as He's created us to do for all eternity" suggest something different to you than they did to me.
When they follow " It will be like life now, businesses running, sports, entertainment...," they certainly don't imply a single thought and single desire to me. I don't see how you can engage in business, sports and entertainment if you only have a single thought in your head.
Nor can I. Might be better to ask Jeff next time he's online.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
I've often been accused of having a mind like a Welsh railway (single track and absolutely filthy). Even that would get boring after a few million years, I suspect.
Thought loops? Isn't that some kind of conceptual breakfast cereal?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Thanks for starting up this thread....I've read some of your more recent posts and you seem to alluding to a conflict in the proposed ideas about heaven. It's probably my fault, but I've reread some of the post and I'm unable to follow. Can you name them explicitly?
Here's my response to your previous post:
(November 7, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: It may be naive of me but the traditional picture of Heaven is a place where the saved go after shuffling off this mortal coil.
Well, that's just a temporary fix if you will. The eventual heaven is a restored earth. The concept your referring to is what happens before the grand finale.
(November 7, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: If there is to be no sin etc, then surely that infringes upon the free will of the heavenly tenants, since they will be unable even to commit a sin even accidentally?
You are correct, "free will" in heaven will not entail the ability to choose sin.
However Christians long for the day when they don't have to struggle to do the right thing...they will always want and be able to do the right thing.
(November 7, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Worse, they can only act in ways that accord with your god's "glory", worshipping it for all eternity, which as I stated upfront is a hell of a long time - a kind of infinity.
That's actually not a new thing...the Bible teaches that on this earth now all things (in the grand scheme) work for the glory of God. Heaven will be the same.
(November 7, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: A case in point can be lifted directly from your post. You say that "there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness". I was never content being single even before meeting up with my beloved Princess; I most certainly am not now after having her stolen from me. Obviously, there is little chance of my being considered for this new kingdom, since as an unbeliever I commit the one unforgivable sin. However, assuming for the moment that I do qualify for the housing list, I am to remain in this distressingly single state forever. Any version of me that has been reprogrammed so as accept this unhappy state is not going to be a me that anyone of my acquaintance is going to recognise, least of all me.
(November 7, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm interested too in how you expect businesses to work with all sin nullified. Aren't the overwhelming majority of businesses dependent on such 'sins' as greed, envy, lust perhaps? Even those ultra-rare businesses that might exist which operate on co-operative principles rely on a rigidly-defined system of demarcation, an us-and-them setup, which must inevitably lead to resentment of sorts between management and staff. I fear that such answers that may be offered for these matters are going to boil down at some point to 'godwillsit' or similar.
It is often that business do run on greed, but in heaven greed won't be something that one would have to struggle with. Businesses could be operated for the benefit fo the whole.
November 8, 2012 at 1:54 am (This post was last modified: November 8, 2012 at 2:14 am by Godscreated.)
(November 7, 2012 at 5:26 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote:
(November 6, 2012 at 10:17 pm)Stimbo Wrote:
Just been browsing the FSTDT archives and came across something that inspired this little thought.
What do all of you who are 'saved' expect to do when you get to your heaven? After all, eternity is a long time, a kind of infinity if the advertising's anything to go by. Even if we take eternity simply to mean until the end of the Universe, that's still a hell of a lot of hours to fill. How do you imagine doing that? Perpetual sudoku?
Incidentally, the corollary question doesn't really apply, since we hellbound heathens apparently have a full itinerary mapped out for our eternities; what with all that torture and fire and hanging out with history's great thinkers.
What do you do in heaven? Get bored I suppose? I mean the first thousand years will probably be decent, as long as you like worshipping the lord and massaging his ego every day, but after that, well...?
I mean in actual reality, a good lifespan I reckon would be 1,000 years, but anyway...
And doesn't an eternity of heaven make this actual life look like an inconsequential, tiny worthless speck - why bother going through the 80 years or so of actual life in the first place?
Why do christards never think of this shit and then think "...oh, hang on?"
And of course godschild think that maybe god will allow him to run his own galaxy in the afterlife, yes he actually said that.
No I did not, shows how much attention you pay to what others say. I said God might give me a galaxy to care for, not run, there's a great difference. What ever it is God has for us will be of total joy, just because your insignificant brain can not grasp the greatness of God does not mean His infinite wisdom will not have great and infinite things to enjoy.
(November 7, 2012 at 12:07 pm)jonb Wrote:
(November 7, 2012 at 11:52 am)John V Wrote: Read Romans 9 for crying out loud.
You know what's pathetic? Atheists who turn every thread into a POE thread.
No; you know what is pathetic, someone who thinks torture for all eternity is is good morality. Don't try to take the high ground christian, your philosophy is of the lowest order imaginable.
Your ignorance is unbelievable, no where in scripture is hell called a place of torture, what is hell, a place of punishment, punishment for eternal disobedience. There must be a infinite punishment for infinite sin, just as there is a infinite reward for infinite obedience. Now understand this, the infinite sin and obedience will care over in the next life, except the obedience in heaven will be perfect.
Eternal punishment for eternal sin is perfect justice, like you guys keep saying there must be an opposite to all things, the opposite to eternal reward is eternal punishment.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(November 8, 2012 at 1:54 am)Godschild Wrote: What ever it is God has for us will be of total joy, just because your insignificant brain can not grasp the greatness of God does not mean His infinite wisdom will not have great and infinite things to enjoy.
Total joy? Who is defining joy? What then is total joy?
Who the fuck are you to proclaim that another human brain is 'insignificant'? I suppose you assume your brain to be significant. A convenient and meaningless distinction.
Your infinite wise god is second rate. A proper god would have no problem creating obedient humans. Your god's fucking book proves my point.
