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The Myth of the Third Party Solution
#31
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
(November 10, 2012 at 9:22 pm)Minimalist Wrote: No one gives a shit what the Greens say.

Jill Stein is a non-entity.

Well Green has been winning so I guess the liberals and not some conservative nut like you care.
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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#32
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
What did the Greens win?
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#33
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
(November 11, 2012 at 9:58 pm)festive1 Wrote: What did the Greens win?

The last time they may have had any real impact on the election was 2000 where they may have cost Gore Florida. However, that election was so close that any minute issue could have changed the outcome of that election. Heck, if not for voters in West Palm Beach who didn't know how to use the butterfly ballot, it would have gone differently.
I live on facebook. Come see me there. http://www.facebook.com/tara.rizzatto

"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
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#34
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
Forgive me if this sounds cynical, but wouldn't that just lead to -more- people voting against the other guy? How would that deal with people figuring their party couldn't win (and thusly boosting the numbers for a different candidate in the initial round....and then against a candidate in the runoff). Unless that sort of political calculus and risk management is entirely subverted by the system I can't see it going away.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#35
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
An example of some of the hoops.

http://www.seolawfirm.com/2012/10/third-...-election/


Quote:One obstacle to success for third parties is access to the ballot. The Republican and Democratic parties, with their multi-million dollar war chests, are routinely able to place their candidates on the ballot in all fifty states. Third parties face what for them are formidable barriers. Each state has its own ballot access rules, some calling for hefty registration fees, and some requiring the signatures of a certain number of registered voters. For small organizations with limited resources, the simple action of getting their candidate’s name on the ballot is not always achievable.

The Presidential debates play a central role in the election process, and third party candidates are usually excluded. Since the 1988 election, the debates have been organized by the Commission on Presidential Debates, a nonprofit corporation controlled by the Democratic and Republican parties. The League of Women Voters withdrew its support from the debates, stating that secret agreements about which candidates could participate and what questions would be asked amounted to a “fraud on the American voter.” Green Party and Libertarian Party candidates have been arrested attempting to participate in the debates. [6] This year, at least three corporate sponsors, including Philips Electronics and the YWCA, have withdrawn their support because of Gary Johnson’s exclusion from the debates.
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#36
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
Third parties never will gain any traction until the American people finally realize they don't need to forced to choose between Team Blue and Team Red. I think it will take high profile Dems and GOP to actually break away out of principle and form their own party. Of course this would require someone who cares more about their beliefs and less about political power so... who knows if that will ever occur.
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#37
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
It would also require that people vote for them..even if they might -gasp- lose. So long as the fear of some other party gaining ground is a primary motivator any election system that can be gamed will be gamed to avoid it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#38
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
(November 12, 2012 at 1:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: It would also require that people vote for them..even if they might -gasp- lose. So long as the fear of some other party gaining ground is a primary motivator any election system that can be gamed will be gamed to avoid it.

That's true, but in this situation, we'd have several different groups pop up, each one focusing on a different political perspective. So, let's say we have 6 parties, 6 candidates and you get an election where the 'winner' gets just 20% of the vote. As much as I'm not crazy about the idea of us voting against a candidate instead of voting for a candidate, I'm even less fond of someone winning the election when 80% of the population wanted someone else to win and that's where the run off comes in. If you want to vote Green Party, or if you want to vote for a labor party or if you want to vote for a libertaria party, you can do that. But nobody wins that first round without at least 51% of the vote. Second time around, yeah, you do kinda have to bite the bullet and vote for someone you may not be too fond of in the name of preventing an even worse person from winning. That's kinda how politics goes sometimes: choosing the lesser of two evils. But this would eliminate the spoiler effect that currently comes from third parties while still allowing them to participate in the election fairly, it would encourage candidates to promote themselves instead of negative attack adds against their opponent, it would encourage candidates to set themselves apart from the pack in a positive way and appeal to voters that are often ignored. The only addition I might throw in would be an alternative vote, but two candidate run off would be a good place to start, so I want to see us start there.
I live on facebook. Come see me there. http://www.facebook.com/tara.rizzatto

"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
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#39
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
That's quite the idealistic view of how this will all play out. Can't you imagine 2 or three actual candidates with the rest being maze funded socks for the others? I also don't see how it would allow anyone else to participate fairly as the barriers to entry seem to be cash and serpentine regulations. Two things which two parties have decidedly in their favor (and lets not kid ourselves..whoever found themselves in power would endeavor to make this so for their own party-assuming a changing of the guard).

Assuming the vote went out equally it would always be someone who 80% or more of the country didn't want to win - winning elections. The vote -against- the other guy (a vote for business as usual) would become even larger.

Let me play evil subverting motherfucker for a moment. I'm candidate 1's strategist. Candidate 2 has a chance against me (in our polling, should we be the last men standing). Now, candidates 5 and 6 don't stand a chance in hell against anyone (and maybe just maybe they're in somebodies pocket to begin with), I'm ignoring them. Candidate 3 is my direct rival (ideologically...diluting the vote) and candidate 4 is my competetion's (candidate 2) rival. I'm going to go negative against 3 in states I can contest, but positive on 4 in states I cant. Meanwhile, I'll go negative on 2 at every opportunity. If this sounds a whole hell of alot like our primaries that's because it is, and I didn't realize that people were very satisfied with the "two men standing" at the end of our primaries, that leads to the runoff we call "the general election".

Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more choices (specifically better choices) in our elections...hell, I may even be persuaded to vote. However, when we imagine the best case scenario of any system we're proposing I think we do ourselves a disservice. More candidates -might- mean more choice, but it also means more pieces to play in the political game, and a much easier road to power for smaller but more dedicated and dare I say cutthroat political camps. Now I'm not a political strategist, so if a way to game a system like this jumps out at me you can bet your ass that people who do this for a living will have ideas that exceed the manipulative nature of my own by orders of magnitude. Here's the real kicker though, they won't even have to manipulate quite as much, because the vote is already diluted for them at a base line (and not that this hurts their chances, because they could win as little as 16% and still take office)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#40
RE: The Myth of the Third Party Solution
Silly internet commentators. If voting actually could change anything it would be illegal to vote.

The only way to change the US government in a fundamental way that benefits the working class is to abolish it and replace it with another. Which is no easy task, I grant you. But, tinkering around with third party creations and "better" candidates won't unseat the US ruling class from controlling every major aspect of life for the majority of people in America, in their own favor, not yours.
"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses." LENNY BRUCE
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