Hello Truth Seekers

[Edwardo Piet]

We cannot know. there is no try.

Whether you can know or not is irrelevant to the question "Do you believe 'X' exists?" - you can believe regardless of knowledge. You can believe on faith or on evidence - but you still either have a belief or you don't. Although perhaps there's an "unsure" mode when you "don't know what you believe", but we're not dealing with for instance, apatheism here. And besides, on a deeper level apatheists probably - at least quite a bit - hold a yes or no answer to the question: on a deeper level. Like subconsciously or something like that, I reckon.

So you agree now that there is a choice of believing in God or not then Evie?

A mechanical involuntary choice - without 'free will' - that isn't something you can just muse over. Not what I'd ever call a "choice".

It's not like picking a flavour packet of crisps for instance. Both cases are mechanical, but with crisps it's a "hmm, I'll have that one" - a choice. Beliefs aren't like that. Beliefs you either believe something or you don't, compelled by your experience.

EvF

[fr0d0]

Beliefs are a bit more of a permanent choice than the flavour of crisps you'd choose.. yeah I'd hope so Tho' with you atheists you never know

Yeah it's mechanical in the sense that there's no free will really, we just act on our influenced programming. Normal people still call that a choice tho'



An EvF'ism... In choosing my choice I only chose what choice I had to choose.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I've provided my reasoning. Provide yours.

I have done so repeatedly.

Atheist & theist are labels that describe someone (or rather someone's position with respect to claims to deity) ... you are an atheist when you cease to believe in deity, you are a theist when you believe in deity but it is OTHER FACTORS that lead to those. If I read/hear a number of reasons explaining to me that there is a god (or reason it for myself) and I find them persuasive I will become a believer (a theist) but it is not the same as saying I am a theist therefore these things are true, likewise if I read/hear a number of reasons explaining to me why there is no god (or reason it for myself) and I find them persuasive I will become a non-believer (an atheist) but it is not the same as saying I am an atheist therefore these things are untrue!

The default human condition is atheist, people learn to believe (taught by other people in various roles and in some cases decide for themselves that there is or is not a god) but the simple fact is that you do not choose to be an atheist and I believe that anyone who says they have was likely not a real atheist but someone who has fallen out of love with or their god (or is being plain disingenuous)!

Kyu

[fr0d0]

Well what I said was that my reasoning lead me to make the decision. the same as the reasoning lead me to decide for (I publicly committed a decision to be a Christian. It wasn't in private. I voiced my status the moment I changed it) . Like I said, after your correction, I didn't decide to be an atheist.. that was a figure of speech. I decided to 'not believe'. There was an actual moment I thought that to myself.

Yes it's more complex than that - reasoning had occurred and the shift was enough between belief and disbelief that I couldn't have made any other choice...

I dunno, perhaps I could liken it to marriage.. it's a commitment. I wasn't in this just inside my own head. I was in a community. You could be in a marriage and then really be out of that marriage in your head. Some people stay in marriages when they don't want to be with the other person. Sometimes a person decides it'd be best to split. Formally you have to act on your reasoned position to put yourself where you reason to be. You say "it's over, I'm off", and your position is now true.

In your experience you say the process was gradual and there was no definite point of conversion. I've heard that a lot from people who were believers as children. The other way too... there's no point they remember making a decision.. it's something that just gradually came over them.. a belief in God. To be disingenuous I'd call that fake; In my experience there's no commitment there; The person has no interest in what they believe.

[Edwardo Piet]

Beliefs are a bit more of a permanent choice than the flavour of crisps you'd choose..

Beliefs aren't like choosing a flavour of crips, that's my point. Whether it's free or un-free, you still 'choose a flavour', when it come to the crisps... but with beliefs, you either have a belief or you don't (or perhaps arguably, you're apathetic, as in 'apatheism', but that's not what we're discussing here) - and you are either convinced or unconvinced by things. The flavour of crisps is still a "choice" in some sense (like, externally at least) even though (at least to us) it is done mechanically... but with beliefs, how are they anything like it? Beliefs aren't about 'choosing' as a packet of crisps are. You're either convinced or you're not, you have your reasons... but you don't 'choose' those reasons and you don't think "hmm, I think I'll be an atheist" or "Hmmm...I'll opt for theism".

An EvF'ism... In choosing my choice I only chose what choice I had to choose.

Or as I put it: You have options but you have no option over which options you opt for.

EvF

[omjag86]

Frodo

No, I googled Holosync as directed. Lil Bill there will be pleased to take (fleece you for) your money.

You googled Holosync and you think a man named little Bill wants your money?

I'm wondering if you noticed that Holosync is not the only Nuerotechnology on the planet?


If you want I would be happy to send you the first program so you could try it out. I might even be able to download it to you on MP3 and then you could decide for yourself whether or not such a thing works.
If you are saying it's using peoples desires to better themselves to make money, then how would you describe tithing?

I don't make money off of Holosync, but I do assume that someone asking me how I practice Atheism is interested in expanding their self awareness. However, after reading through your comments on this thread I see that you are simply trying to validate your Ego and identity through your limited opinions and concocted beliefs that have no basis in the day to day reality of what is called life.

IF you want I know several people in their eighties and nineties who have the same limited concept of reality that you do, I could send you their e-mails or maybe you can just go to FOX online and start your own thread.

In the meantime I'm going to go create a whole bunch of endorphins and HGH and build grey matter and make all sorts of new nueropathways using Mr. Harris's Holosync.

Frodo-isn't that a fictional character, incapable of free will?

Peace In
Om

[Kyuuketsuki]

Well what I said was that my reasoning lead me to make the decision. the same as the reasoning lead me to decide for (I publicly committed a decision to be a Christian. It wasn't in private. I voiced my status the moment I changed it) . Like I said, after your correction, I didn't decide to be an atheist.. that was a figure of speech. I decided to 'not believe'. There was an actual moment I thought that to myself.

I don't really think it's possible to decide what to believe but I wonder if all we have here is a misunderstanding? Are you sure the point at which you decided wasn't more of an epiphany, a moment of revelation or some such because I certainly got one of those (a point at which I went, "Oh, so I'm an atheist!")?

In your experience you say the process was gradual and there was no definite point of conversion. I've heard that a lot from people who were believers as children. The other way too... there's no point they remember making a decision.. it's something that just gradually came over them.. a belief in God. To be disingenuous I'd call that fake; In my experience there's no commitment there; The person has no interest in what they believe.

Yes it was gradual but there was a point of realisation as I say above, a point at which my nightmares vanished and I finally felt very comfortable with what I then knew I was.

Kyu

[fr0d0]

Yes Evie it's a bigger choice. So?

@omjag86 ..you go for that bullshit? Or are you kidding? I can't tell.

Seems like your underwear has become uncomfortably displaced. Religion can be a good way to extract a living out of the gullible as well, I agree.

Mine was a light hearted question. Again, you seriously go for that?! And you call me on my worldview? LMAO

I have friends who go get high on weed. Maybe you should try that too. It may help you chill

[Edwardo Piet]

Yes Evie it's a bigger choice. So?

Free or un-free, there's not any sense that I would consider it a 'choice'.

Even with my belief in free will, one could still say you "choose" a pack of crisps, as in you pick a flavour. I'm arguing that beliefs are nothing like that though. It's not something you muse over and then "pick", or "choose". You are convinced or unconvinced, and this is a result of your experience which compels you... I don't see how it's anything like a "choice"... whether free or un-free.

EvF

[fr0d0]

I don't really think it's possible to decide what to believe but I wonder if all we have here is a misunderstanding? Are you sure the point at which you decided wasn't more of an epiphany, a moment of revelation or some such because I certainly got one of those (a point at which I went, "Oh, so I'm an atheist!")?

I can go for that Kyu. An individual has already made the choice when they make any decision.

Yes it was gradual but there was a point of realisation as I say above, a point at which my nightmares vanished and I finally felt very comfortable with what I then knew I was.

Yes that realisation struck me sat in the car - and the feeling of elation accompanied it. That's just emotion which is probably inconsequential as we have these realisations. What's more important is what happens more slowly over time in the consolidation of our ideas.