Do atheists even need an objective moral system?

[genkaus]

No, not at all. Might is just might. Weak is just weak. Rightness or wrongness is not connected to the amount of power of an individual.

But apparently the imposition of morality on the society is.

A despot ruler is "right" to murder his subjects but his subjects who hate his rule are also "right" to try to overthrow the despot.

But only one of them gets to do the "right" thing.

Perhaps some people like living as a bum? You're conflating common ideas of better or worse with real better and worse. The two are not the same.

You are defeating your own argument here. You assume that there is a "real" better and worse and accuse me of misidentifying it, while ignoring the very real possibility that very likely the common ideas about better and worse correspond to real better and worse and those who like living as bums are simply deluding themselves.

If I don't eat, I starve. But who's to say that's worse? It's worse for me because like to live and I like to eat, and I don't like pain and suffering. But if I were some suicidal masochist, that might be a fun time.

So what is good for you is not good fro you? Pain is pleasure? Misery is happiness? That sort of self-contradiction is the clearest sign that the values you have chosen are irrational, illogical and therefore immoral.

True. But the values I end up with are not identical to anyone else's. My core values are rather normal but you can easily find people throughout history with apparently sadistic and selfish values.

The wrong values chosen by them is not evidence that there are no right values.

Well this just came out of nowhere. Looks like we're back at square one.

Let's just set up an example: I have enormously powerful nuke that could destroy the world killing everyone. Why would it be wrong for me to use it?

Because you'd end up destroying yourself.

Give me some examples of these principles.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-12271-po...#pid271447

This is just an assertion. It's not clear to me how nuclear annihilation is any more "wrong" than mixing plaid and stripes.

Mixing plaid and stripes hardly has any effect on the quality of your life. Nuclear annihilation would have a huge negative one.

[pocaracas]

Humans are social animals, like wolves and bees and ants...

Given that we need to live together, we have developed some rules that make it better, on the whole; or better for the majority.
Such rules as "do not kill another human being" are for the betterment of the group.... but this tends to be forgotten on human beings of other groups.
Today, with all this interconnected world, some people find it easy to realize that we're just one large group... some people still have a hard time grasping this concept. Genetically, we've evolved in relatively small groups, each trying to survive, even if that meant annihilating a neighboring group.
And then people came up with this morality concept.
Morality as the set of rules which tell right from wrong.
What is right? Whatever makes the group better.
What is wrong? Whatever makes the group worse.

Apply this to the group of "humans on the face of the Earth" and you should arrive at some general notion of morality for the whole of humankind.

Can one individual uphold a set of rules which hold for the whole of humanity?

[Brian37]

I hate questions like the one posed in the title of the thread. Philosophy is dead and to me is totally meaningless. Atheism is a position, specifically the "off" position on ONE claim. Atheism is not a worldview or a philosophy and our human behaviors as a species, are NOT label dependent.

There is only one NATURAL reality in "morals" which can only be individual and subjective. That is that which seeks benefit and reduces harm. Reality is fluid and ever changing so to attempt to make it stagnant and never moving by saying we need a "system" is absurd.

The reality of nature is that it is BOTH good and bad. It is both constructive and destructive. Evolution does not care how you get to the point of reproduction, it merely has to work, moral or not. Now, having said that, ALL humans can if they seek to CAN lean to the positive side of nature in our ability to be compassionate. But again, neither our ability to be kind or cruel to each other is not, nor has ever been a philosophy or religion or worldview.

[genkaus]

Humans are social animals, like wolves and bees and ants...

Given that we need to live together, we have developed some rules that make it better, on the whole; or better for the majority.
Such rules as "do not kill another human being" are for the betterment of the group.... but this tends to be forgotten on human beings of other groups.
Today, with all this interconnected world, some people find it easy to realize that we're just one large group... some people still have a hard time grasping this concept. Genetically, we've evolved in relatively small groups, each trying to survive, even if that meant annihilating a neighboring group.
And then people came up with this morality concept.
Morality as the set of rules which tell right from wrong.
What is right? Whatever makes the group better.
What is wrong? Whatever makes the group worse.

Apply this to the group of "humans on the face of the Earth" and you should arrive at some general notion of morality for the whole of humankind.

Can one individual uphold a set of rules which hold for the whole of humanity?

Where does this idea that morality applies only in a social context comes from? If my actions don't affect anyone other than myself, then are those actions beyond moral judgment? Do you really mean to say that a day I spend binge drinking and watching TV is morally equivalent to learning something new?

Morality is something more basic than our social behavior.

Humans are rational animals, unlike wolves, bees and ants.

Given that our actions are no longer bound by our instincts and immediate perceptions alone, we have the ability to develop concepts regarding how we should live our lives. The concepts or rules regarding how we should act are what constitute morality.

Such rules as "living in a group" are for our betterment and therefore, other rules for the betterment of the group itself can be devised. Morality distinguishes between right and wrong as distinction between actions we should or should not undertake. Apply the individual level principles to the group and you get morality at the social level and apply it to the world and you get morality of the whole humankind.

---

I hate questions like the one posed in the title of the thread. Philosophy is dead and to me is totally meaningless. Atheism is a position, specifically the "off" position on ONE claim. Atheism is not a worldview or a philosophy and our human behaviors as a species, are NOT label dependent.

I hate it when people doggedly commit to a position without examining its philosophical underpinnings. Yes, atheism is a position regarding a singular claim, but it is position taken as a consequence of a particular philosophy or worldview. Human behavior, as an individual and a group, depends upon the the philosophy or worldview one accepts - whether one consciously acknowledges it or not.

There is only one NATURAL reality in "morals" which can only be individual and subjective. That is that which seeks benefit and reduces harm.

If there is only ONE natural reality regarding morals, then it is neither individual nor subjective. By the nature of reality it'd be universal and objective. So, go ahead and justify that that one reality is "seeking benefit and reducing harm".

Reality is fluid and ever changing so to attempt to make it stagnant and never moving by saying we need a "system" is absurd.

On the other hand, the concepts governing reality and those changes have been consistent and logical - therefore, specifying a system of morals without fixing its application sounds like the rational choice to make.

The reality of nature is that it is BOTH good and bad. It is both constructive and destructive. Evolution does not care how you get to the point of reproduction, it merely has to work, moral or not.

On the contrary, reality of nature is NEITHER good or bad - it is amoral. The concept of caring or not cannot be applied to evolution. The constructive and destructive forces of nature are not conscious and therefore not subject ot moral judgment.

Now, having said that, ALL humans can if they seek to CAN lean to the positive side of nature in our ability to be compassionate.

Nature does not have a positive or negative side - it just is. Those concepts are devised by humans and applicable only to them.

But again, neither our ability to be kind or cruel to each other is not, nor has ever been a philosophy or religion or worldview.

No, simply the consequence of one that we consciously or unconsciously accept.

[pocaracas]

Where does this idea that morality applies only in a social context comes from? If my actions don't affect anyone other than myself, then are those actions beyond moral judgment? Do you really mean to say that a day I spend binge drinking and watching TV is morally equivalent to learning something new?

Morality is something more basic than our social behavior.

I guess we've come to the definition of the word: morality, morals...
As far as I see it, it's the right thing to do. Right in the light of better for the world.
If you do something that is of no consequence for the world, then morality doesn't apply.

If you kill yourself, you reduce the human capacity in the world, and force some one else to handle your carcass.... someone would have to do it eventually...
If you drink and watch tv, instead of learning something new, you're just doing some temporary harm to yourself... postponing your potential contribution to the rest of the world.
It's almost impossible to find a situation where anything you do affects you and only you.

[genkaus]

I guess we've come to the definition of the word: morality, morals...
As far as I see it, it's the right thing to do. Right in the light of better for the world.
If you do something that is of no consequence for the world, then morality doesn't apply.

If you kill yourself, you reduce the human capacity in the world, and force some one else to handle your carcass.... someone would have to do it eventually...
If you drink and watch tv, instead of learning something new, you're just doing some temporary harm to yourself... postponing your potential contribution to the rest of the world.
It's almost impossible to find a situation where anything you do affects you and only you.

You're wrong on multiple counts.

There is no requirement for morality to be considered in light of betterment of the world. That is just your personal assertion without any justification.

Secondly, almost everything you'd do in life would be of so little consequence to the world that it might as well be inconsequential. By that standard, hardly anything you do in your life would be of any moral consequence.

And thirdly, try to take this line of thought to its logical conclusion of having "betterment of the world" as the criteria for morality. Currently there is are huge sections of human population - the elderly, the unemployed poor, the disabled or sick - who are currently suffering, are not contributing to the world and whose any potential contribution is easily outweighed by the drain on resources they are causing currently. By your criteria of reducing suffering - both current and future - and maximizing benefit, the most significant moral thing to do would be to exterminate them.

[pocaracas]

I see... well then, please define morality for me.
What does it mean to "be moral"?
I am apparently completely off the real mark... Maybe I've been doing it wrong... :-s

[genkaus]

I see... well then, please define morality for me.
What does it mean to "be moral"?
I am apparently completely off the real mark... Maybe I've been doing it wrong... :-s

I hate repeating my views over and over again. Anyway,

http://atheistforums.org/thread-12271-po...#pid271447

[pocaracas]

You could have copied just the relevant part:

I think that morality is a collection of concepts like mathematics, but one that addresses our actions.
[...]
Morality: Code of conduct based on the knowledge of good and bad. By itself, the definition of morality does not encompass any goals nor does it specify any actions that are exempt from its purview. Like mathematics, it is a tool of evaluation. Where math helps us evaluate physical objects, morality helps us evaluate actions of moral agents.

We then need to know what is good and what is bad... that was sadly missing in the long text concerning objective morality... and I didn't read it all

Let's forget the word "moral" exists, and focus on good and bad.
Is it good to spend a day drinking in front of the tv, instead of learning something new?
Is it good to kill of all those "who are currently suffering, are not contributing to the world and whose any potential contribution is easily outweighed by the drain on resources they are causing currently"?

What is good?
- Minimize suffering of all individuals? Even if that means increase the suffering of a few? (as in more taxes to pay for the caring of elderly and sick or wiping out these elderly and sick to decrease taxes on the remaining)
- Minimize suffering of each and every individual?
- Maximize pleasant feelings in each and every individual?
- Other?
- All of the above?

Intellectually, I have no answer to this.
I just spend my days doing what experience has led me into assuming that the best course of action is to disturb the minimum of people and please as many as possible, where the main recipients of such pleasing are my closest family and friends.

[The Grand Nudger]

What is good.....well....




apparently..."that is good".