Fetuses are people. Unless it costs the church money

[Something completely different]

Guten abend Deutsch-lander!

Yes, from the science of human embyrology we know an unborn child is a human being, created at the moment of conception.

At that moment, a life is created with 46 chromosomes, 23 each from his/her fathers sperm and mothers egg. A form of life with 46 chromosomes is called a human being

The only difference between a human being at that moment, and a human being aged 10, 40, 60 or 80, is time.

And that is also catholic position, therefor if a catholic representative argues in a court of law in a way that contradicts catholic doctrin - he is a hypocrit or his church is.

The hospital is not arguing any point, its just referring to what the law says: an unborn child is not a person.

The defence is based on the laws own statues, not Catholic doctrine. It is the legal definitions which count in a court-room, not what Catholic doctrine says.

There is no hypocrisy involved.

People are only saying there is, because they want that to be the case!

Take it easy!
GS

There is hypocracy involved because by arguing that way in court they contradict their own policy.
It doesnt matter if they argue simply out of acordance to the law.

They have a certain opinion and they reject it in court to preveil as inocent infront of the legal system.

[Gabriel Syme]

It is not all about the handling of knowlege.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germ...78215.html

This is a report on a recent scandel here in Germany, where a catholic hospital refused to give a rape victim treatment, since that "could" potentialy lead to an abortion.

You say:

a catholic hospital refused to give a rape victim treatment

the link says: (my emphasis)

A 25-year-old possible rape victim was reportedly refused a basic exam at two Catholic hospitals in Cologne last month. The Church says the impression that rape victims can't be treated at Catholic hospitals is "false."

If a "possible rape victim" was really refused treatment at a Catholic hospital, then we can be sure that the media would be as unequivocal in stating this as you were.

I suspect the "possible rape victim" was not a rape victim, and so declined an examination, rather than was turned away.

The media do put out a lot of biased negative propaganda about the Catholic Church, it is disappointing how easy it is for them to influence people.

Words like "reportedly", "apparently", "seemed to", etc should be a dead giveaway to people.

Reports containing such words are not making statements of fact, they are promoting malicious gossip.

[fr0d0]

How can there be a case in law if no law is broken? If the case is against Catholicism: it's stance that life begins earlier, then that's not a challenge in law is it? Where is the case?

[Gabriel Syme]

I think you need to brush up on your definition of the word hypocrisy Gabriel...

Hey there,

Hypocrisy: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypocrisy

The hospital defence is not professing Catholic doctrine, it is professing the terms of the secular law which applies to everyone.

It is not hypocritical to say that secular law does not regard unborn children as people, because secular law does not regard unborn children as people.

[Cyberman]

I agree that the news media, particularly the less reputable tabloids, can often be criticised for sensationalising a story to shift papers, or printing misleading information to the same end. However, words like "reportedly", "apparently", "seemed to", etc, while they may be a "dead giveaway", they also don't automatically equate to outright lying. Or rather, if you are of the opinion that such reportage is less than honest or accurate, yours is the onus of presenting evidence to support the claim.

[Something completely different]

You say:

a catholic hospital refused to give a rape victim treatment

the link says: (my emphasis)

A 25-year-old possible rape victim was reportedly refused a basic exam at two Catholic hospitals in Cologne last month. The Church says the impression that rape victims can't be treated at Catholic hospitals is "false."

If a "possible rape victim" was really refused treatment at a Catholic hospital, then we can be sure that the media would be as unequivocal in stating this as you were.

I suspect the "possible rape victim" was not a rape victim, and so declined an examination, rather than was turned away.

The media do put out a lot of biased negative propaganda about the Catholic Church, it is disappointing how easy it is for them to influence people.

Words like "reportedly", "apparently", "seemed to", etc should be a dead giveaway to people.

Reports containing such words are not making statements of fact, they are promoting malicious gossip.

"Possible" rape victim because she woke up in a park her pants gone.
It was revailed that she had been under the influence of a date rape drug. The hospital is obliged by german law to not give any further information to the public about if the victim was actualy raped.

Fact is, the catholic hospital refused to give her the treatment she needed.

She had to go to a protestant hospital to receive the treatment she needed.

I know this pritty well because it was last weeks to reported scandal here and arroused alot of anger. And a debate came up wether catholic hospitals should be nationalised or ghanded ove under protestant administration or privatised.
This is not just my opinion, the catholic church in Germany officialy appologised for it`s behavior accepting that id had done wrong by not giving the woman treatment.

nothing tabloidish or media overhyped in that story.

Exactly the oposite, the story broke after some good old investigative journalism and a complaint by the doctor from the protestant hospital

[Darkstar]

Hypocrisy

Hypocrisy is the state of promoting or trying to enforce standards, attitudes, lifestyles virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually hold and may even regularly violate.

Definition of HYPOCRISY
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially: the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

Catholic Church and abortion

The Roman Catholic Church opposes all forms of abortion procedures whose direct purpose is to destroy an embryo, blastocyst, zygote or foetus, since it holds that "human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Bolding mine.

But when it came to mounting a defense in the Stodghill case, Catholic Health’s lawyers effectively turned the Church directives on their head. Catholic organizations have for decades fought to change federal and state laws that fail to protect “unborn persons,” and Catholic Health’s lawyers in this case had the chance to set precedent bolstering anti-abortion legal arguments. Instead, they are arguing state law protects doctors from liability concerning unborn fetuses on grounds that those fetuses are not persons with legal rights.

As Jason Langley, an attorney with Denver-based Kennedy Childs, argued in one of the briefs he filed for the defense, the court “should not overturn the long-standing rule in Colorado that the term ‘person,’ as is used in the Wrongful Death Act, encompasses only individuals born alive. Colorado state courts define ‘person’ under the Act to include only those born alive. Therefore Plaintiffs cannot maintain wrongful death claims based on two unborn fetuses.”

I don't think this can be made much clearer.

[fr0d0]

Words like "reportedly", "apparently", "seemed to", etc should be a dead giveaway to people.

Not true. The media have to use those terms to stay on the right side of cell bars nowadays.

[Darkstar]

Words like "reportedly", "apparently", "seemed to", etc should be a dead giveaway to people.

Reports containing such words are not making statements of fact, they are promoting malicious gossip.

Did you know that even when the practically find the blood on the murderer's hands, they still say that the killer allegedly did something until the court case officially decides that?

[Gabriel Syme]

And that is also catholic position, therefor if a catholic representative argues in a court of law in a way that contradicts catholic doctrin - he is a hypocrit or his church is.

We should note that employees in Catholic hospitals - or any other institutions associated with the Church, or anyone such as lawyers hired to act on their behalf - are not 'Catholic representatives'.

For a start, they might not even be Catholic!

For be sure we have a proper definition of any particular Catholic belief, value or opinion, we should only ever refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the pronouncements of the Pope (currently Benedict XVI).

The media often overlook this (what should be obvious) fact, and happily latch onto (eg) what the janitor at the local catholic school said, and present it as a credible example of Catholic opinion.

There is hypocracy involved because by arguing that way in court they contradict their own policy.

Remember that it is a hospital which is involved in the court case, not "the Catholic Church".

While the hospital has a Catholic identity and is obviously run with a Catholic ethos, that does not mean it has the Catholic Catechism explicitly enshrined in its policy documents.

(I cant state for definite that it doesn't, I have not seen the hospitals policy documents, but I would be very surprised indeed, if it did).

They have a certain opinion and they reject it in court to preveil as inocent infront of the legal system.

The court case is not decided based on Catholic doctrine, nor anyone accepting or rejecting it.

The court case must be decided in accordance with what the law says - it is the secular law which is supreme here - and the law says an unborn child is not a person.

No-one is changing Catholic opinion, the case is simply proceeding in accordance with the law - as all court-cases should.

Yes, it is a notably quirk that a catholic institution might benefit from a law which disagrees with Catholic doctrine, but - hey - that's life. We should treasure these little moments of comedy.

The law is renowned for often creating bizarre circumstances, especially in America, where court-cases mean megabucks for lawyers.