Noah's Ark Zoo

[Kyuuketsuki]

In the UK we have a political party called the BNP. They are racist and anti-gay-and probably anti-semitic. Do I agree with them? Hell no. Do I want them band? No. Why? Because we live in a democracy. Like it or not that means listening to people you do not agree with.

Who the hell mentioned "banned"?

The same applies to this group. I might not agree with them, but as soon as you ban them (like all good 'progressive' neo-liberals threaten to do to anyone who happens to voice an opinion not PC enough) you create martyrs. What happens then? People like the BNP et al gain mainstream sympathy. Anyway, any scientific theory which can not stand up to a little bit of critisism and needs to be protected by law really stops being a scientific theory.

Oh I agree about banning them (even though we didn't mention it) ... yes they are more dangerous underground than not.

Oh and by the way, I read the link and even googled the folk. They seemed pretty big on conservation, but homo-bashing not so much. May I ask where you got that info from? Perhaps I have missed something? I do admit I did not read all the pages on the website.

Have you ever heard of "Lying For Jesus"? Trust me, based on nearly 15 years of debate and research on these people, they are cleaver, they are well-funded, they are detrimental, they want everyone else to think like they do and they see our children as the way to do it. They learned that from the US.

Unfortunately they are already in our education system, a primary reason why a friend and I formed the 'Science, Just Science' Campaign

Kyu

[dagda]

Well if there is no ban in the offing, who cares? The tourist board promotes them? I don't care. It is just one zoo which offers an alternative view, and as long as they do not preach race hatred etc then leave them be. I have met plenty of fundamentalist Christians. Have you ever actually talked to any? They are no worse than any other group of people.

Anyway, I find that campaigns against a group of people tend to create a martyred status just the same. Indeed, it widens their impact by drawing attention to their cause. All publicity's is good publicity's, as they say.


'Trust me, based on nearly 15 years of debate and research on these people, they are cleaver, they are well-funded, they are detrimental, they want everyone else to think like they do and they see our children as the way to do it. They learned that from the US'


I laughed at this. If I showed this to a random person on the street and told them you were anti-Zionist, they probably would not contradict me. Why? Well, because this accusation would not be out of place on the lips of an anti-Zionist. 'Trust me, if we let our guard down for a minute, the Zoo will be impaling gays!' hock:

[dry land fish]

Sounds like the creation museum in northern Kentucky. It depicts dinosaurs on the Arc and humans are riding Dinosaurs. I think the tourism commission supports our museum here because our state relies on tourism to function. Most of the tourism commissions support all tourist traps regardless as long as they provide a family atmosphere. They get a lot of visitors and most are just curious to see what kind of idiotic stuff they have in there. In my state a school would not take any trips to anything like that. We do a pretty good job of separating church and state. That is surprising considering that my state lies in the bible belt.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Well if there is no ban in the offing, who cares? The tourist board promotes them? I don't care. It is just one zoo which offers an alternative view, and as long as they do not preach race hatred etc then leave them be. I have met plenty of fundamentalist Christians. Have you ever actually talked to any? They are no worse than any other group of people.

Yes I have ... I worked with one for maybe 7 years, under normal circumstances they are ordinary people but they have NO BUSINESS being in our education system, they have NO BUSINESS being funded by the public purse to promote ignorance!

Anyway, I find that campaigns against a group of people tend to create a martyred status just the same. Indeed, it widens their impact by drawing attention to their cause. All publicity's is good publicity's, as they say.

The way The Church has carefully conducted a campaign against atheists and the meaning of atheism so that people are ashamed to admit they are such? So that coming out as an atheist is a difficult and often shaming experience?

I laughed at this. If I showed this to a random person on the street and told them you were anti-Zionist, they probably would not contradict me. Why? Well, because this accusation would not be out of place on the lips of an anti-Zionist. 'Trust me, if we let our guard down for a minute, the Zoo will be impaling gays!' hock:

You're an idiot to ignore the threat they represent ... 7 years ago I predicted they would hit the UK as well, that they were not just a US phenomenon! Now they are in the UK education system and in those of many other European nations ... these people are dangerous! There was a time when many people thought they way these people think, a time before the enlightenment ... it was known as The Dark Ages and there is reason to be wary of such ignorance.

I don't want them banned but I will fight to stop them being publicly funded and will oppose the ignorance and bigotry they spread.

Kyu

[dagda]

The way The Church has carefully conducted a campaign against atheists and the meaning of atheism so that people are ashamed to admit they are such? So that coming out as an atheist is a difficult and often shaming experience?

I see, so this is not about these people at all. You are angry that 'the Church' has campaigned against secularisation, and want some measure of revenge against the people you feel are responsible. That is the conclusion I would draw if I was a Fruadian. Psychoanalytical rocks!

You're an idiot to ignore the threat they represent ... 7 years ago I predicted they would hit the UK as well, that they were not just a US phenomenon! Now they are in the UK education system and in those of many other European nations ... these people are dangerous! There was a time when many people thought they way these people think, a time before the enlightenment ... it was known as The Dark Ages and there is reason to be wary of such ignorance.

I don't want them banned but I will fight to stop them being publicly funded and will oppose the ignorance and bigotry they spread.

Kyu

I am not ignoring them. I am just reminding you that rhetoric like the kind you are writing in this thread can lead to blind hatred. Take a step back and try and see the situation from their point of view. The people at the zoo are probably very nice people with no hidden agenda beyond conserving a couple of animals and trying to explain their point of view.

You talk about atheistic discrimination. Perhaps in America, but in this country [UK] there is a trend in which 'coming out' and saying you are a devout Christian, and attend Church regularly is met with jokes and mocking. I am not saying there is not atheistic discrimination, but I would ask that you look at the other side of the fence once and a while.

Creationists have as much right to voice their views as humanists, and it is perfectly legal and decent in a humane society for all views to be aired and understood, if not agreed with.

[Kyuuketsuki]

The way The Church has carefully conducted a campaign against atheists and the meaning of atheism so that people are ashamed to admit they are such? So that coming out as an atheist is a difficult and often shaming experience?

I see, so this is not about these people at all. You are angry that 'the Church' has campaigned against secularisation, and want some measure of revenge against the people you feel are responsible. That is the conclusion I would draw if I was a Fruadian. Psychoanalytical rocks!

Don't be arse Dagda, that wasn't what I said! My response was SPECIFICALLY addressed to your comment, "I find that campaigns against a group of people tend to create a martyred status just the same" ... you're being a dick!

You're an idiot to ignore the threat they represent ... 7 years ago I predicted they would hit the UK as well, that they were not just a US phenomenon! Now they are in the UK education system and in those of many other European nations ... these people are dangerous! There was a time when many people thought they way these people think, a time before the enlightenment ... it was known as The Dark Ages and there is reason to be wary of such ignorance.

I don't want them banned but I will fight to stop them being publicly funded and will oppose the ignorance and bigotry they spread.

I am not ignoring them. I am just reminding you that rhetoric like the kind you are writing in this thread can lead to blind hatred. Take a step back and try and see the situation from their point of view. The people at the zoo are probably very nice people with no hidden agenda beyond conserving a couple of animals and trying to explain their point of view.

Oh yeah ... take a step back and try to see it from a point of view of ignorance and bigotry? Like I'm really going to do that ... I prefer education and unfortunately that requires legislation because if you didn't these people's children don't stand a chance (not to mention those they infect with their poisonous stupidity).

You talk about atheistic discrimination. Perhaps in America, but in this country [UK] there is a trend in which 'coming out' and saying you are a devout Christian, and attend Church regularly is met with jokes and mocking. I am not saying there is not atheistic discrimination, but I would ask that you look at the other side of the fence once and a while.

Somehow I think you're exaggerating ... 72% of the people in the UK stated they were Christian, much of the media freely holds religious belief up as an icon, the BBC spends significant amounts of money on religious programming, the government is continuing to allow (even when it goes wholly elected) the second house to have bishops in it and the monarch is the head of the Christian church with the presumed future monarch wanting to be head of all UK religions.

Creationists have as much right to voice their views as humanists, and it is perfectly legal and decent in a humane society for all views to be aired and understood, if not agreed with.

Oh indeed they have but what they DON'T have a right to (no religious or religious stance based groups which includes humanist) is access to the public purse or assistance from any body funded by it.

Kyu

[Violet]

They voice no opinions... only fallacy. They attempt then to preach this fallacy as fact... to impressionable children (and their parents...)... who likely haven't experienced enough of the world to realize it is complete farce.

Slavery is wrong... because it forces life, which is different from non-life only because of choice, to be unable to make choices. That is religion... and to support it is to support slavery of the absolute worst kind: slavery of the mind.

You can shackle a person up, force them to work unreasonable hours, with little to no freedom to do what they chose with their body... and their mind is still their own. They can decide wether they like their 'job' or not, they can choose wether to obey or disobey... they have choice... they are alive, and they live.

But if you brainwash someone... make them unable to make their own choices: they cease to be life... and become true robots... true slaves. They are alive... they are made of biological matter, with a heart, and possibly the ability to reproduce... but they do not live... they cannot make choices (or are much less able to)... and they are forever slaves to commands. There is no difference between that and a computer... except that one is made of metal, and the other of flesh.

So really... do you support slavery... or not?

[Amphora]

But if you brainwash someone... make them unable to make their own choices: they cease to be life... and become true robots... true slaves. They are alive... they are made of biological matter, with a heart, and possibly the ability to reproduce... but they do not live...

So really... do you support slavery... or not?

No I would not support slavery.

To force somebody to do something against their will is wrong. And it is bad to teach children at a very young age to discredit science thats just plain wrong. Children should be able to learn everything wheather it be science, history, or whatever they put their little minds to.

People shouldn't have to listen to mindless drivel from people who are highly religious (christians).

Amp

[Godlesspanther]

Creationists are not proposing an "alternative view" as dagda suggests. They are kooks plain and simple. What they propose is indoctrination of erroneous information that cannot be understood in a logical and scientific manner. The only way for their views to be propagated is through indoctrination -- brainwashing. Education is designed to teach people how to think not what to think. Creationism has no place in an education system. Some kooks are harmless and for those harmless kooks I would agree that they should be ignored rather than combated. For an example of harmless kooks I would suggest those who believe that they have been abducted by space aliens or those who think that they are able to astral project their spirit (or whatever) into the air above their house or even into outer space.

So, where does one draw the line? If the harmless kooks that mentioned were trying to get into the public education system to teach students that alien abductions and astral projections are real and that there is concrete scientific evidence to back it up and then infiltrate school boards and lobby the government with such drivel -- the innocuous kooks become a threat. The creationists are such a threat. They have created a powerful and damaging propaganda machine in the USA. The most dangerous being the Dishonesty Institute of Seattle. Creationists who are such lying sacks of shit they refuse to admit that they are creationists. These are dangerous kooks and should be treated accordingly.

[Amphora]

They have created a powerful and damaging propaganda machine in the USA. The most dangerous being the Dishonesty Institute of Seattle. Creationists who are such lying sacks of shit they refuse to admit that they are creationists. These are dangerous kooks and should be treated accordingly.

What machine are you talking about? And what school in Seattle are you talking about?

I agree with you wholeheartedly that these dangerous kooks should be treated accordingly.

Amp