Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

[Confused Ape]

I think it's likely that stories about the Santorini eruption got mixed in with other stories about the Hyksos leaving Egypt.

Who Were The Hyksos

The Hyksos were basically a Semitic people who were able to wrestle control of Egypt from the early Second Intermediate rulers of the 13th Dynasty, inaugurating the 15th Dynasty. Their names mostly come from the West Semitic languages, and earlier suggestions that some of these people were Hurrian or even Hittite have not been confirmed.

Contemporary Egyptians during the Hyksos invasion designated them as hikau khausut, which meant "rulers of foreign countries", a term that originally only referred to the ruling caste of the invaders. However, today the term Hyksos has come to refer to the whole of these people who ruled Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt's ancient history, and had to be driven out of the land by the last ruler of the 17th Dynasty and the earliest ruler of Egypt's New Kingdom.

The effects of something like the Santorini eruption would be terrifying for people who knew the science behind it all. It's hardly surprising that stories about Santorini got handed down and interpreted as being a deity punishing people.

[John V]

Then why did God harden it?

To display more works. Ordinary hardness of heart is going to give in before all ten plagues. Read it and you'll see that it says pharaoh haredned his heart the first few times, then it switched to god hardening his heart.

[Greatest I am]

An easy way to "rationalise" the God of the Bible is to equate God with karma... (just my opinion, your results may vary)
.

I am not quite sure if I would use the word rationalize but we do not have an argument.

Regards
DL

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I think it's likely that stories about the Santorini eruption got mixed in with other stories about the Hyksos leaving Egypt.

Who Were The Hyksos

The Hyksos were basically a Semitic people who were able to wrestle control of Egypt from the early Second Intermediate rulers of the 13th Dynasty, inaugurating the 15th Dynasty. Their names mostly come from the West Semitic languages, and earlier suggestions that some of these people were Hurrian or even Hittite have not been confirmed.

Contemporary Egyptians during the Hyksos invasion designated them as hikau khausut, which meant "rulers of foreign countries", a term that originally only referred to the ruling caste of the invaders. However, today the term Hyksos has come to refer to the whole of these people who ruled Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt's ancient history, and had to be driven out of the land by the last ruler of the 17th Dynasty and the earliest ruler of Egypt's New Kingdom.

The effects of something like the Santorini eruption would be terrifying for people who knew the science behind it all. It's hardly surprising that stories about Santorini got handed down and interpreted as being a deity punishing people.

I agree.

I too see it as a myth of the Hyksos expulsion re-written for Semitic pride stroking.

That system of topological writing was common in those days.

The N T may have been written the same way thanks to the War of the Jews book and Rome’s deep purse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

Regards
DL

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Then why did God harden it?

To display more works. Ordinary hardness of heart is going to give in before all ten plagues. Read it and you'll see that it says pharaoh haredned his heart the first few times, then it switched to god hardening his heart.

To what end?
Just so that he could kill the innocent first born instead of their guilty parents?

Is that moral and good or is it God doing evil?

Regards
DL

[Minimalist]

The events of the exodus could be down to the eruption of the super volcanoe at Santorini.

Actually, no. The sequence of events is totally wrong.

In the bullshit story, god fucks over Egypt with a whole series of "plagues" and then frees the jews who run off into the desert. Then he changes his mind ( because god is a total fucking prick) and goes charging after them only to be drowned by the tsunami caused by the eruption.

In the case of Santorini geologists have tracked the ash cloud and the bulk of it moved north east into Asia Minor. The amount of volcanic ash in Egypt is miniscule by comparison which means that there would not have been a sufficient impact on the land to produce these dire plagues. Secondly, the Santorini tsunami is generally attributed to caldera collapse which would have come at the end of the eruption but still long before the bulk of the ash settled on the land...even if the ash had been aimed in the right direction.

Pharoah and his army would have had to be chasing jews before they let them go and who would have had to have disregarded "god's" warning not to take the northern route in the first place!

Sorry, guys. There is no saving this particular turd from the bible.

[Confused Ape]

In the case of Santorini geologists have tracked the ash cloud and the bulk of it moved north east into Asia Minor. The amount of volcanic ash in Egypt is miniscule by comparison which means that there would not have been a sufficient impact on the land to produce these dire plagues. Secondly, the Santorini tsunami is generally attributed to caldera collapse which would have come at the end of the eruption but still long before the bulk of the ash settled on the land...even if the ash had been aimed in the right direction.

I found something interesting on the United States National Library of Medicine.

Medical Papyri Show The Effects Of The Santorini eruption heavily influenced the development of ancient medicine.

Abstract
Exposure to ash from the catastrophic Santorini eruption radically changed Bronze Age medicine, triggering the development of new remedies, the wide dissemination of medical data, and the transfer of technologies. These developments were identified in medical papyri thanks to remedies for ailments linked to volcanic matter an oddity in Egypt, a country without volcanoes. The anomaly was traced back to the Santorini eruption, which through volcanic ash, acidified bodies of waters, and acid rain affected the whole eastern Mediterranean without sparing Egypt. Using available technology, doctors developed new remedies for severe irritation to eyes from ash and for burns on the skin, or imported foreign remedies as exemplified by paragraph 28 of the London Medical Papyrus (L28), thus resorting to technology transfer even if so crude. Furthermore, medical manuals rather than being guarded by families of physicians were now used to disseminate remedies as widely as possible. Finally, besides providing historical data, the medical reaction to the Santorini eruption could still be of use today. The remedies could be integrated in manuals for emergency situations for population left without adequate medical infrastructure at a time of exposure to heavy volcanic fallout or acidified rain.

The 1986 Camaroon disaster really happened.

1986: Hundreds gassed in Cameroon lake disaster

The article includes a photo of the lake which had turned reddish brown.

It looks like the Santorini disaster could have affected ancient Egypt in some ways and people elsewhere could have heard how it had affected other places from travellers.

There's a lot of evidence that the stories of the Egyptian plagues were based on real events. So what? None of it proves that any deity exists. Some religious extremists were claiming that the Boxing Day Tsunami in 2004 was God's punishment but that doesn't mean the tsunami never happened.

[Brian37]

This is not a debate. The bible is bullshit and whatever real places or real people peppered into that comic book does not, nor will ever make invisible friends real. The exodus never happened and the Egyptians like all cultures back then would never let an enemy touch or build a grave.

Seriously, even today, do you think the family of Jerry Falwell would hire me to carve a tombstone, or enslave me to build one?

Humans are tribal and when anyone dies in that tribe outsiders are going to be part of that mourning process.

[Confused Ape]

The bible is bullshit and whatever real places or real people peppered into that comic book does not, nor will ever make invisible friends real.

You obviously missed the last line in my previous post. "There's a lot of evidence that the stories of the Egyptian plagues were based on real events. So what? None of it proves that any deity exists.

I don't know where you live but here, in England, we're used to the idea that legends can have some basis in fact. For example, there's a lot of evidence that Eadric The Wild existed even though there are local legends attached to him.

[Cinjin]

Sorry, guys. There is no saving this particular turd from the bible.

Aren't they all turds?

[John V]

To what end?

As already noted, to display more works. We're still talking about it thousands of years later.

Just so that he could kill the innocent first born instead of their guilty parents?

That and the other plagues that came after it says that god hardened pharaoh's heart.

Is that moral and good or is it God doing evil?

You'll say it's evil, I'll say it's just.

[thesummerqueen]

Passover/The Exodus story is a made-up excuse for Jews to eat a lot of good shit. End of story.

On the other hand, it could have been made up to explain why they were eating giant crackers that give the worst constipation. I'd want an explanation.

"To display more works" sounds like a rather human response rather than something an all-powerful being would give a flying fuck about.