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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 3:23 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2013 at 3:26 pm by Confused Ape.)
(February 6, 2013 at 3:11 pm)John V Wrote: That and the other plagues that came after it says that god hardened pharaoh's heart.
Looking at it from the ancient Israelites' point of view. They had stories about all the devastation caused by the Santorini eruption and these got mixed up with stories about the Hyksos leaving Egypt. They would have wondered why the Pharoah didn't let the Israelites in their Exodus story go when the first plague struck so the only explanation they could come up with was that God must have hardened the Pharoah's heart. It's would be a case of putting two and two together and making five.
 Where are the snake and mushroom smilies?
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 3:41 pm
(February 6, 2013 at 3:11 pm)John V Wrote: Quote:To what end?
As already noted, to display more works. We're still talking about it thousands of years later.
Quote:Just so that he could kill the innocent first born instead of their guilty parents?
That and the other plagues that came after it says that god hardened pharaoh's heart.
Quote:Is that moral and good or is it God doing evil?
You'll say it's evil, I'll say it's just.
Exodus 23:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
Deuteronomy 24:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.
Isaiah 5:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
Woe to you boy, woe to you... 
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm
(February 6, 2013 at 3:41 pm)catfish Wrote: Exodus 23:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty. Yes, from a Christian or Jewish point of view, they must not have been innocent, otherwise God wouldn't have put them to death.
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:07 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2013 at 4:12 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(February 6, 2013 at 3:23 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: (February 6, 2013 at 3:11 pm)John V Wrote: That and the other plagues that came after it says that god hardened pharaoh's heart.
Looking at it from the ancient Israelites' point of view. They had stories about all the devastation caused by the Santorini eruption and these got mixed up with stories about the Hyksos leaving Egypt. They would have wondered why the Pharoah didn't let the Israelites in their Exodus story go when the first plague struck so the only explanation they could come up with was that God must have hardened the Pharoah's heart. It's would be a case of putting two and two together and making five.
From Israelite's point view, it must appear necessary to concoct a suitably grandiose origin myth to mitigate the sense of unworthiness resulting from the manifestly superior grandeur, culture and majesty of the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Anatolia and Mesopotamia. So they stitch together rudely perceived elements of widely disparate stories and anecdotes, to which they add a generous amount of custom manufactured bullshit, in an effort to bastardize an already crude regional history and insinuate themselves into a historic narrative in which they otherwise would have had neither a significant, nor a praise worthy, part.
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:08 pm
Woe to the backpedalers and the evil of heart.
You had no objection to them being called innocent before and you called it just.
Your holes are allowing your brains to fall right outta that sockpuppet...
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm
(February 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm)John V Wrote: Yes, from a Christian or Jewish point of view, they must not have been innocent, otherwise God wouldn't have put them to death.
I'm guessing they believed it in those days because they had no idea what causes natural disasters.
Where are the snake and mushroom smilies?
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm
(February 6, 2013 at 4:08 pm)catfish Wrote: Woe to the backpedalers and the evil of heart.
You had no objection to them being called innocent before and you called it just.
Your holes are allowing your brains to fall right outta that sockpuppet...
. Wow, are you saying God put innocent people to death? I expect that from the atheists, but you claim to be a Christian. Pretty bizarre.
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Wow, it's a good thing you don't post with the other nick, you are the epitome of stupid...
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:23 pm
It took me forever to find this, and I'm not quite satisfied with it because of reasons which will soon be apparent. When discussing this "heart-hardening" shit we do have this interesting report....
http://ib205.tripod.com/ahmose_1_1.html
Quote:Expulsion of the Hyksos in Year 16 of his reign.
Ahmose I slowly drove the Hyksos back to their capital Avaris (location on one of the eastern branches of the Nile in Lower Egypt), once here Ahmose laid siege to the city. Ahmose had troubles of his own with his kingdom, he left the siege of Avaris in the control of his military commanders so that he was free to placate a rebellion in the Theban region. When Ahmose returned to Avaris he found that negotiations had been taking place between the Hyksos and his military commanders the Hyksos were allowed to leave Egypt gracefully in return for surrendering the city (1532 BC).
...However, Ahmose was not going to let his enemy escape so easily the Egyptian army pursued the Hyksos people into southern Palestine to Sharuhen. The city was put under siege by the Egyptians, after three years the Hyksos once more fled this time into Syria. Again the Egyptians followed, but Ahmose finally returned home to Egypt.
The tombs of two of Ahmose's soldiers give accounts of the campaigns (Ahmose son of Ebana, and Ahmose Pennekheb).
I have found a translation of the inscription of Ahmose son of Ebana and while it confirms the fighting and the rebellion it does not go into the detail of Ahmose I chasing after the Hyksos as it is mainly a funerary boast of a dead soldier. I have been unable to find a translation of the Ahmose Pennekheb inscription. Maybe I'll see if I can still find the online repository of James Henry Breasted's translations of Egyptian writings and see if this happens to be in there?
Anyway, assuming the story is true it would certainly give another shot in the arm to the garbled story of the Hyksos expulsion being re-worked into the exodus bullshit story.
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RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
February 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2013 at 4:25 pm by Zone.)
(February 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm)John V Wrote: Wow, are you saying God put innocent people to death? I expect that from the atheists, but you claim to be a Christian. Pretty bizarre.
Jesus was innocent and a person wasn't he? And don't get started on the Old Testament. But atheists you see don't put anyone to death because they treasure the brief beauty of life before.... non-existence or something, whatever.
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