Is belief in God a choice

[Rhizomorph13]

Saerules,

The answer is simple; atheists simply choose other kooky things to believe in. One great example would be 9/11 truthers. There have been a few atheists who seem to believe this kind of nonsense.

I believe in a soul and reincarnation and do so without evidence other than my own perception. I know it is irrational but since it is a belief, it is just a de facto part of who I am. I think this is the heart of the issue. Beliefs are arrived at through study or lack thereof; theists are trying to figure the same shit out as atheists so I would have to see a study done to rationally conclude that theism correlates to less ability to be rational (I honestly have no idea what metric would be best to measure rationality). Irrationally though I think we are all people and the worldview coin flips depending on what influences we are willing to listen to.

Some people please themselves by creating, what they think, are airtight cases that support their worldview. There was even an atheist on here who thinks that a simple question prooves that god doesn't exist. Now THAT is irrational.

Rhizo

[Edwardo Piet]

Wait...do you really believe in a soul and reincarnation? Or is that a joke?

Do you reject God because of the lack of evidence, per chance? And that you believe the belief to be irrational? And if this is so, then this also applies to a soul and reincarnation...so how do you believe it?

EvF

[Rhizomorph13]

EvF,

I meant what I said, I find myself believing in both a soul and reincarnation. I know they are irrational but I can't let go of the nagging belief in them due to some personal experiences I just can't move into the hallucination category.

It would be nice and tidy to believe that atheism is some evolutionary step toward some perfect rational worldview but nature is far from nice and tidy and even less so when humans are involved so... there you have it.

Rhizo

[Edwardo Piet]

Okay....

Personal experience is not evidence though, and hallucination however improbable it may 'seem' is more likely than the alternative!

You know about over 70,000 people once claiming to see the Sun crash to the earth in Portugal Fatima?

Insane, yes...but the alternative to it being an opitical illusion of some kind, or even a 70,000 people mass hallucination - the alternative to it having actually happened...is obviously as close to impossible as anything is. The sun is still here....and for it to fall down and pop back up...I mean... that's extremely improbable if you want the understatement of the century lol.

Hallucinations - or some other possibility unthought of - are far more probable than the alternative, and personal experience of these things, are not evidence...but if you believe you believie lol :S

EvF

[Violet]

There are also Christians who believe that nonsense. My boyfriend's father is the worst conspiracy theorist i've ever seen, and he is also heavily religious. All of us are born different (even clones are born different entities), therefore it is difficult to make accurate sweeping generalizations of people. However, people with similarities naturally flock together... and i have noticed that church (where i live anyway) is a place where a lot of very stupid, ultra-conservative people swarm to. I think religion can be cured... i do not think stupid can be.

If you believe in such things, Rhizomrph13, then you are probably an agnostic, and not an atheist. Could such things exist? They might, i have only heard a few good arguments against them (Neuroscience is, i think, the best one against a soul, although if one interprets it differently than i do: it could be possible), (The eventual sliding of all existence to Black and White extremes is the best philosophy argument i have against reincarnation, but if considered differently than most people consider it [there is a way or two], it is possible).

Theists are not trying to figure out the same things... if atheism did not exist: we would never have made ti out of the dark ages. A theist's life goal is usually to hope to live somewhere nicer... An atheist's life goal is usually to make their life nicer. We realize how precious our life is, because we probably only have one of them. A theist (think muslim?) cares not about this life, because they believe in a hope that they will go on living happily when they die.

We are all people... but not all of those people are scientists... and 93%+ of scientists are agnostic or atheist. I should think there is a strong correlation between that, and theists being less rational. I think there is also a strong correlation between suicide bombing and being less rational. I also think that not listening to rational discourse, and being religious, are heavily linked. I think that there is a strong correlation between religiousness and stupidity... because 70% of my state is stupid [seriously](ultra-conservative, republican, elected sara palin and other horribly stupid officials, etc. i live here) and more than 70% of it is Christian.

A link? Again, i think so I haven't looked up any external scientific evidence to support the link, but simple observation.

A simple question proves that a certain type of entity (Any entity) cannot exist. Few, if any, humans know wether beings more powerful than ourselves exist. Is it likely? Almost certain. Are they all-powerful? No. Gods (the way that religions usually think of them) cannot exist, because they defy the mathematics of the universe.

[Rhizomorph13]

Saerules,

What does belief in a soul and reincarnation have to do with belief in god or gods? I'm an atheist; you don't get to redefine me so that I fit into your philosophy. I understand why you "think" certain things but unless they are proven to be true through scientific study they are just raw assertions (Yes, much like my assertion that we have a soul and are reincarnated, neither of which I proselytize for). None of us sample the population without bias so our own observations are not valid evidence and what might sound like nonsense to one individual makes perfect sense to other individuals.

My idea of reincarnation is a pointless one because it posits that almost no memory crosses over, so for all intents and purposes the "me" that I am will cease to exist even though some of me will pass forward to experience life in a new body.

My point was that even atheists hold kooktastic beliefs so there might not be such a correlation between rationality and atheists as we might all like to believe.

EvF,

Yeah man, I get what you are saying and my belief stands firm. I have heard that there is a quick but minimal decrease in body weight right after death that is thought to be the soul but this is a discussion to have in another topic I have yet to start.
Rhizo

[fr0d0]

Wow! Nice posts guys.

Belief in something is not a choice ... belief is the result of a rationalisation process (horribly twisted in theists I know) that brings that person to a particular POV.

Not sure that's correct. Most people I know received their religious beliefs as very young children, well under 'the age of reason'. As children we believe implicitly what our parents tell us,about the world,god,other people and ourselves.

This type of thinking really gets my goat. It's not Christian, although of course you're entitled to your POV, As is often repeated in churches.. "God has no grandchildren". You can't somehow imbibe belief.. until you make a positive decision YOU ARE NEVER a Christian.

However,as I've said before,my atheism is not a choice,but an inescapable conclusion reached after many years trying to avoid that conclusion.Perhaps that's why I'm often so contemptuous of the theists who infest atheist forums;their apologist position is old tired and boring.

As I said, atheism, or lack of belief, is the default position. You say you went from believer by default to atheism through reasoning. You never considered the logic of Christianity as It has to be considered, from non belief.

[Violet]

Most people who believe in reincarnation also believe in a force responsible for such death defying. That you don't is better... in fact, your reincarnation idea isn't half-baked like most.

Not all atheists are rational, but most of them would seem to be so. Not all theists are irrational, but most of them would seem to be so. It is not a direct correlation between atheism and rationality... they do less preaching however, and therefore sound smarter

That minimal decrease in body weight should be gasses leaving your body. (Oxygen, carbon dioxide, methane gas from your bowels, etc). Maybe the minute difference includes an especially light-weight soul...?

[fr0d0]

In fact being open-minded is about:

• Establishing exactly what claim is being made, what phenomenon is being tested or evaluated.
  
• Establishing all possible explanations to account for the phenomenon and, if possible ...
  
• Setting up and executing a series of strictly controlled tests or observations designed to systematically and rationally eliminate the wrong possibilities and establish which accounts for the phenomenon in question.

Precisely. Being open minded is being open minded using your own narrow definition of open mindedness. I could maybe live with that if you then didn't justify your worldview with some bullshit marginalist philosophy. You prove yourself that your limitations are not sustainable.

I don't have to dismiss any of the above to hold my worldview. I just don't limit it to only those, as it's impossible to do so and remain rational.

To quote Spock ("Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country"), "An ancestor of mine maintained that when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

So you are, by allegiance with that statement, 100% certain there is no God. This is not what you've said before, a position regarded as the lunatic fringe.

I may well end up believing in your god or some other but what it won't be is a choice! If you want to let your brains to fall out then be my guest!

LOL well I dismiss bullshit too Kyu. As well as your bullshit that science will somehow answer all questions it does not, by definition, address.

Of course the absurdity you're claiming is that God will be scientifically proven. How illogical does this serious evaluation of facts let you be? Incredibly & extremely illogical it would seem. I don't think I'll be adopting that farcical POV any time soon thanks.

---

In order to believe something you have to be convinced it's true. Regardless of what your standards of evidence are, you have to be convinced.

Indeed. I agree.

I could not possibly chose to believe in God, I'd need to be convinced. I did believe in God when I was younger, I didn't chose atheism. The simple fact is that the more I looked into God and religion, the less I was convinced until I realized I no longer believed. It wasn't a choice, but a process I went through.

You believed without reasoning, this is counter to the requirement of Christianity/ Catholicism. The god you believed in could have been any god. Imagining some white bearded old guy sat on a cloud is not belief in God. Having a certainty beyond logic is not belief in God. That is not Christianity.

For other people who believe in God, they have been convinced in their own way. Maybe they believe what they were taught as a child unquestioningly, or maybe they had an experience that convinced them or reaffirmed their faith. Either way, they don't chose to believe either. They honestly are convinced there is a God, for whatever reason that may be.

It sounds here like belief in God does not require faith. Would you agree with that? In EvF's point, faith is ruled out, I suspect because EvF innocently cannot entertain the idea because it is outside of his understanding.
To gain or lose faith is different to a physical interpretation of belief. Having faith in the unknowable is different to belief in the truck about to run you down.
Here we lose connection with belief as an absolute knowledge. In religious terms belief is similar to faith in that it is not certain in the same way. Beliefin God does in no way imply absolute knowledge.

[Retorth]

Beliefin God does in no way imply absolute knowledge.

That I have to say I agree with. There is no certainty.


I think belief in God being a choice really depends on circumstance. There are people who are born into a religion. When I say "born", I mean their parents spoon feed them the desired religion from the day they were born so it becomes a part of their life naturally.

But I have seen some people who, for example, decide to become a Christian, and I have a friend like this, and he still is a very staunch (did I spell that right?) Christian. However, I know another who was raised in a buddhist family, one day started going to church with friends and eventually decided to become Christian and went to church and cell groups etc... on a regular basis. However, she eventually stopped both, though she still believes but isn't one of those staunch believers. In this example, both of them chose to become Christian so it was a decision on their part....though I reckon the staunch believer friend of mine would probably say "God created my path and meant for me to find him" blah blah blah....