Am I a "liberal"?

[dry land fish]

I don't care if you attack me. I'm not self absorbed but I'll agree I'm insensitive and the older I get the more insensitive I seem to get. I see how people work for things and then how others sit around waiting for someone else to give them a freebie. That's life. I am not closed minded at all. I may look like a fool to you but that doesn't make me a fool.

[Edwardo Piet]

DLF, earlier I didn't think you meant 'terrorist' in the general sense of the definition, as in the sense that a gang of thugs 'terrorize the neighbourhood', I thought you were saying they were just as bad - or even the same as - terrorists on the much larger scale. If you weren't I apologize for the misunderstanding.

EvF

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I am not closed minded at all. I may look like a fool to you but that doesn't make me a fool.

"Open minded" by definition means being open to new ideas. Name ONE new idea you've accepted since being on this forum. Most of are us closed minded in some ways. EG I am completely closed minded about child molestors. I despise them and sincerley believe they should be killed,even though I am utterly opposed to the death penalty in principle.. That's emotion,not subject to reason.

I did NOT say you ARE a fool only that you seem like one to me.[most of the time] Not being a mind reader,I can only assess others on what they they say and and do.


In my opinion,it's foolish to claim personal absolutes,such as "I'm not closed minded at all".Some of your posts demonstrate the exact opposite EG your notions on poverty and universal health cover seem heavy on emotion but light on fact,with a refusal to consider alternative views..By "alternative views" I mean; read a few studies on poverty in the US,speak to a health economist. Informed opinion is a based on fact,not FOX News or hyperbole from vested interests [from any side]

Capitalism is pragmatic,especially and I benefit from it.I do not want to change it for that reason. But there is a significant alternative view which argues capitalism is immoral by its a nature .Perhaps the most brilliant and lucid explanation of that view is in Karl Marx's "Capital".If you're so open minded,consider going to a library and reading few chapters. Perhaps on concepts such as"exchange value", "alienation" and "false consciousness". Alternatively, Wiki has some reasonable articles on each.

My apologies if you've already read Marx or Mao, or Franz Fanon's powerful "The Wretched Of The Earth", and rejected them.

[Tiberius]

Where does your definition of multiculturalism come from?

Dictionary.com, although there are loads of definitions that are similar (and others than match your version) - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=def...ulturalism
As I said (and you ignored, surprise surprise) both definitions match my view of things. Your definition specifically said that there could not be any discrimination or prejudice, and you have spent the entire thread arguing that there is this prejudice. If you don't fulfil the entire definition, it does not equate it. The fact that we are 91% white should give you a fucking clue about the state of multiculturalism in this country, add to that the number of black Britons and the number of non-British cultures goes down severely. In this country, people's cultural identities are taken away from them rather than integrated (as per my shopkeeper example); this is not multiculturalism in action at all.

No, we ARE multicultural....except that dinosaur racists are still around.

Yes, apart from the racists, the non-integration of other cultures, the overwhelming number of white Britons, we are a multicultural country. In the exact same way that a car without the engine, doors, and steering wheel is...a car. Your argument is complete bullshit.

I'm not an anorak or as dedicated to debate as you, so go search...or not, I don't really care.

Well apologies for this being a debating and discussion forum. Next time why don't you just fuck off if you can't be bothered to debate your points properly. You may be older than I am by a few decades, but when you find something you disagree with, all you do is stick your fingers in your ears and scream "I'm right, you're wrong! Nyahh!". Very childish. Not to mention you accusing me of being a racist due to the fact that I simply disagree with how anti-racism is undertaken.

Fuck your strawman, I'm bored with its appearance every other post. The fact remains that your premise is totally flawed, in any meaningful sense. Go tell the poorest, starving, about-to-die child in Africa that they have the equality you say they have. TOTAL BOLLOCKS.

Actually, it was *your* strawman. You are BORED with it appearing?!? YOU were the one who brought the fucking thing up! Look, here it is:

According to you we are all born equal. Bill Gates child is the same as a child born to the poorest woman on the planet. Remember that one? You assert this by separating out economic matters from some pure ideal of equality. Totally nonsense.

I view every single person as equal bozo; I am sad that you do not. If we do not view everyone as equal, we will never get anywhere towards our goal of a prosperous global community where everyone has the same civil rights, and discrimination is a thing of the past. The fact that you do not view everyone as equal betrays you as discriminatory, which is highly ironic given your aforementioned claim of my racism.

You maintain you are not racist. So be it. I have my doubts.

Doubts based on absolutely nothing other than your inability to think outside your little bubble world. The only opinions that count are your own in bozo's bubble land; it must be such a great feeling to know that you don't have to consider anyone else and their opinions.

From what I see of you and Dlf's posts, you are both " me first "...second...and last. That's how come you are both capitalists.

No, I'm a capitalist because I don't see any other system working. You tried to convince me of socialism once bozo, and you failed after you admitted (after much probing) that if I wished to pay for a better home or education for my children, I would not be able to. Socialism is the ultimate authoritarian system, and I stick by that conclusion.

Your Winston Small answer is...no answer.

Poor poor bozo. Instead of "no answer" did you perhaps mean "not the answer I would have given"? I'd agree with that. I'm terribly sorry that my answer wasn't the one you were looking for. It doesn't make it any less of an answer to your question though. If I were in that situation, I'd feel pissed off, but the correct way of going about things isn't to subscribe to a racist concept known as "affirmative action". It would be to educate those who are discriminating, and work my way up the way everyone else does.

I'll answer your question; I'd think the ethnics are finally making some progress.

Excellent, well when you return to your family and your starving children look up pleading into your eyes and ask "Do we have dinner tonight daddy?", you can comfort them with the fact that although you did not get a job, at least someone less qualified and less deserving of it did so, all because they were a different skin colour. If you can't see the racism and sheer lunacy of that position, I really do pity you. I wouldn't like to be your child at all.

[dry land fish]

DLF, earlier I didn't think you meant 'terrorist' in the general sense of the definition, as in the sense that a gang of thugs 'terrorize the neighbourhood', I thought you were saying they were just as bad - or even the same as - terrorists on the much larger scale. If you weren't I apologize for the misunderstanding.

EvF

Yes I meant that in the sense that they terrorize their neighborhood. Terrorism is the systematic use of terror as a means of coercion. There are many forms of terrorism but ultimately they all put the life of people in danger for reasons that are completely irrational. People live in fear in neighborhoods that are controlled by gangs. Just as people live in fear in neighborhoods that are controlled by the Taliban.

As for closed mindedness. I'm only going to agree with something and change my view of something if someone can give me a good reason to do that. I'm not wishy washy. If I believe in something I believe in it. I don't just change my views on a whim. There is reason behind killing child molesters. They can NOT be reformed. They go to jail and get out and do it again..and again...and again. It's best for society to kill them so that no more children will have to suffer at their hands. Same goes for serial rapists. FACT: We already have welfare for poor people. They already get free health care if they have kids. Fact: They are lazy and won't work as long as we keep giving them freebies. Do you live in America? If so where have you been hiding? Free health care will NOT work in America. If it passes then you'll find that out. The FACT is we don't have the money as a nation to pay for everyones health care!!! I don't watch Fox news because they always seem to take the Christian perspective of things. Quit assuming my views come from TV. Marx lived in a completely different society than what we live in today. Poor people in America have it better than ever before. Look at our country and the things we have! People in trailer parks still obtain computers, ipods, have cable tv, clothes, and cars. We have homeless people but if you are homeless in America with all of the freebies and programs that we have for poor people then you just don't want a home or are too immature to keep one. I know some really poor people and they get free food, their kids get free medical care, and the government pays for their heat in the winter and a portion of their rent. None of these people that I know of that get those services work or want to work. So what if someone has to pay money for their medical treatment? If it were free they would find that not so many people would be interested in providing medical care. The biggest reason people become doctors and nurses is for the money. You can't cling to ideas from people who lived in a different reality than we live in today.

Oh and I had no idea who Franz Fanon was but I looked him up. Apparently one of his inspirations was Malcolm X. Have you any idea who that man was? He was in prison for a while. After prison he became a Muslim but quit that and formed a Black racist hate group. Anyone who draws any influence from Malcolm X is certainly not anyone I care to adopt any ideas from.

[Edwardo Piet]

So it depends on the gangs. To what extent. I reckon. Because I wouldn't say any troublemaking or form of disruption is terrorism.

EvF

[dry land fish]

So it depends on the gangs. To what extent. I reckon. Because I wouldn't say any troublemaking or form of disruption is terrorism.

EvF

We already have violent gangs categorized in America. http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/ngic/violent_gangs.htm
There is also one for white supremacy groups as well.

[Meatball]

..so your solution to that, as a Libertarian, is to have the government intervene and use coercion say that certain people cannot freely assemble with other certain people?

No.

Care to explain how this statement is consistent with your original post? This is a discussion forum, one word answers don't count as discussion.

Urban gangs can't hide behind free speech. Their whole idea is to control a certain area of their city and anyone who isn't part of their "gang" who happens to live or enter their controlled area are sometimes A)killed or B)raped or C)maimed. By controlling an area they sometimes D)illegally force people to pay them for the right to live there, E)run drugs there, F)pimp prostitutes there...etc. They then G)recruit young kids to quit school and join their gang. If those kids refuse they are H)beaten and their parents home is I)vandalized and sometimes they will J)kill the child or their family.

You just named 10 things THAT ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL. Why start tampering with the constitution to provide a bandaid fix?

The fact that you consider yourself a Libertarian, then make statements like this says a lot about you.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Have you any idea who that man was?

Malcolm X? Yes, I spent some time studying the Black Power movement at university.. Potentially a great man.

It's likely that Fanon (died 1961) influenced Malcolm X, and for all I know a range of other revolutionaries. Or not. His ideas were not original,being an expression of the conflict theory of power,used by revolutionaries for centuries. It's the basis of Marxist revolutionary theory. It was probably first written down by Sun Tzu ( C1st BCE, "The Art Of War") and reiterated by Niccolo Machiavelli (1469-1527CE "The Prince) The entire concept was pithily expressed by Mao Tze Dung as" power grows from the barrel of a gun"

I accept conflict theory as the most accurate explanation of realpolitik and of how society actually works.-as opposed to how I would LIKE things to work..

Conflict theory is a social theory which emphasizes a person's or group's ability to exercise influence and control over others, thereby affecting social order. It posits that individuals and groups struggle to maximize their benefits, inevitably contributing to social changes such as innovations in politics and outright revolutions. Conflict theory examines class conflict, such as that between the proletariat and bourgeoisie, and contrasts ideologies such as capitalism and socialism. It proposes that continual struggles exist among all different aspects of a particular society. These struggles do not always involve physical violence; they can be underlying efforts by each group or individual within a society to maximize its benefits. The theory has roots in the critical theory of Karl Marx and the interpretive sociology of Max Weber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_theory

[binny]

There are so many companies in America from small businesses to huge corporations that would not be successful if it weren't for capitalism.

Well that's one thing I agree with, but only one. Being a small business owner I love capitalism. The service and goods I have to offer doesn't do anything for anyone except play on their vanity, or maybe capture a memory. If it weren't for capitalism I wouldn't have a business.

And DLF stop the lazy poor people and health care talk. You've made your point. It doesn't belong here on this thread.