As time goes by

[ecolox]

What is there to live for, lad? What about life itself? Family, you know? We get one crack at this. I, for one, don't intend to waste it on my knees to some superstitious shit.

Yes. Saying life is worth living for life's sake is rather circular. Your next response of 'family' isn't good enough either - according to Jesus or me - what about all the strangers or enemies?
What do you intend to waste your life on? Because, according to you, the best it can be is a waste.

And I certainly do not share your apparent desire to spend eternity with your lips attached to jesus' ass.

Perhaps your colon will suffice for your lips? Then, obviously, I might ask you to take your head out of your own ass...whatever good that might do.

---

What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship?

Well we certainly don't live our life waiting for death or expecting judgement from the intergalactic dictator, we don't live our lives thinking that this is only the trial period or thinking that the best part of existence (heaven) isn't even part of this life.

That wasn't the question, but I applaud you for highlighting the obvious.

We don't spend our lives on our knees in prayer, or accepting ancient ideals passed down hundreds of generations, we don't spend our lives foolishly thinking that an ancient book had some kind of insight or waiting for rapture... I'd like to think we atheists as a whole (though i claim not to speak for anyone) like to look at life as an adventure; something to be lived and experienced....

Ok, so you finally got around to saying something that you would do. I have a question in response, naturally, which is: what does this, effectively, so called 'the adventure of life' consist of?

[Retorth]

What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship?

I know you don't highly regard a higher power, but I'm sure you worship something. What is most important to you, what's the best thing?

Do you even know the meaning of the word worship?

Reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred; the object of adoring reverence or regard - Source: Dictionary.com

I don't pay homage to any thing or any one neither do I regard any thing or any one as sacred.

If people weren't suffering somewhere then no one would have an opportunity to help anyone. And I believe that this life isn't all there is to it, so though it be painful - it's not all there is to it.

So now you're saying god allowed suffering? Imagine a family in the heart of Africa, looking up to the sky and praying for health and the chance that they might live another day and not succumb to starvation and ill health. You try and tell them "some people just have to suffer so others can help". Imagine if you were in their shoes, do you think you'd feel that same way? I reckon not.

That's not good enough according to Jesus or me, what about all your enemies and strangers?

I don't believe in jesus so why do I care? lol But for the sake the argument:

What about them?

I don't live for my enemies. I do not go around making enemies either. I recognize that there will always be assholes in this world but I don't go finding trouble.

What does that mean?

It means experiencing what life has to offer. A family, friends, career, exploring new places, games and much more. There is so much to life but you theists narrow-mindedly focus on god god god god. If you could only open your mind up to the vastness that is this world. Look at people as people and not "you are a man of this god; you are a man of that god".

You live for nothing.

Correction; you are the one living for nothing because you cannot prove with even a shred of solid evidence that what you worship and adore like a pawn even exists. You may have a way with fancy words and terminology but the fact still remains, he claimed a second coming to be "soon" yet its been a thousand years and zilch.

Life does need the supernatural to make sense - otherwise explain it, if you will. And yes, I am dissatisfied with what I have around me - it's called evil, selfishness, impatience, and on and on.

Let me clarify, your life may need the supernatural but mine does not. Everyone has their right to have whatever requisites they desire in their own lives. How about you tell me why you think life needs the supernatural. You are the one claiming the need for something that isn't there. Please do share

[ecolox]

So the ethics defined by the Nazis were relative to it. Could you honestly oppose such a society? How?

I think what the Nazi's did was horrendous but part of the reason I do so is because I have been bought up in a society that has taught me that such things are wrong, yes I have subsequently validated those views but that is nevertheless true.

If you disagreed with the Nazis, as someone outside Nazi society, then could you, with your belief system, impose your will on the Nazis to stop what you considered "horrendous".

As to whether what the Nazi's did is objectively wrong I would say no because there were (obviously) many Nazis' that agreed with what they were doing, many others who stayed silent and a few (in my opinion heroes) who acted against them.

Yea, and since nothing moral makes any sense anyway, what the Nazis did was right - and your opposition to what the Nazis did is right also. This must be impossible though, because two contradictory things cannot simultaneously be true. Plus, there's no way you could have stopped the Nazis, knowing that they were right.

Quite obviously may in that society DID find what was being done to the Jews in their name morally acceptable although I accept that relatively few knew the true horrors of the camps. I have no idea what was actually going on inside the minds of those who supported what was happening and I'd rather not delve in such dark places any more than I want to really know what goes on inside a theists head.

Yea, don't critically think or do anything significant - if you can help it. That way you can focus on living life to the fullest, for you.

Genocide is regarded as wrong today (hence our reaction to The Holocaust) but it apparently wasn't wrong for your murderous god.

Yea, let's stay in your system of thought for this one. What God did must have been right, because He thought it was right. The Nazis thought what they were doing was right too, and to you - they were, even though you think they are wrong (and you're right for that, because your society told you so).

Are you saying that murder could be fine by you, if a society defined it as such (like the Nazis did) or not?

That isn't what I said, I said murder was a legal concept i.e. the illegal killing of a person ... that isn't to say I don't personally believe other forms of killings are wrong.

This conversation isn't limited to only what you say - so answer the question and quit stalling. If you lived in Nazi society - who said murdering jews was good - would you happily murder jews?

Can a person be legally killed (as in the Biblical example)? What are you getting at exactly?

A person can be legally killed yes, it's known as the death penalty and (legal or not) I don't agree with it.

So, even though your society defines the death penalty as good - you disagree - why is that? If God legally wiped out almost all of mankind - you would disagree with that too - even though He would be right for doing such a thing. Now why would you think like that? Aren't we all just a bunch of chemical reactions anyway - not much different than plants or insects, you might say - so what's the harm in swatting an annoying gnat?

As in the bible? Given that I dispute your biblical claim that a god exists I am hardly going to accept that god's dictates as legal now am I?

Yes. Oh, well let's pretend instead that Hitler killed a bunch of Jews because he believed that was the right thing to do - and it was legal in his society. You would support him right?

Be plain, if you will.

What do you think you are? A fucking Quaker?

Well, I'm not far off - I am using this computer here for communication purposes, but I generally avoid getting too caught up with high-tech stuff - specifically, I try to avoid relying on it. Do you have a problem with answer questions as they are asked, working to convey your message clearly, and stuff like that? Or should I prefer for you to beat around the bush all the day long and talk in code?

---

[quote='ecolox']what's the best thing?

Reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred; the object of adoring reverence or regard - Source: Dictionary.com

I don't pay homage to any thing or any one neither do I regard any thing or any one as sacred.[/quote]

So, it looks like my usage of the word works, you just missed it. See - "...or to any object [as in objective, purpose] regarded as sacred [as in important]..." - what is your important purpose in life?

So now you're saying god allowed suffering? Imagine a family in the heart of Africa, looking up to the sky and praying for health and the chance that they might live another day and not succumb to starvation and ill health. You try and tell them "some people just have to suffer so others can help". Imagine if you were in their shoes, do you think you'd feel that same way? I reckon not.

Yes, of course - God allows suffering. I hope the family would seek to please God - just as I hope I would do if in their shoes. I send money to help people just like that, I wish I could do far more. Also, I believe God wants me to care for people in need.

I don't believe in jesus so why do I care? lol But for the sake the argument:

What about them?

I don't live for my enemies. I do not go around making enemies either. I recognize that there will always be assholes in this world but I don't go finding trouble.

So you're going to let those hungry Africans starve to death? Me and Jesus disapprove.

It means experiencing what life has to offer. A family, friends, career, exploring new places, games and much more. There is so much to life but you theists narrow-mindedly focus on god god god god. If you could only open your mind up to the vastness that is this world. Look at people as people and not "you are a man of this god; you are a man of that god".

God, indeed, makes it apparent that there is much more to life than family, friends, career, exploring new places, and games...namely God. You narrow minded atheists block God out, if only you could open up your mind to the immensity of the creator of the universe. Look at people as made in the image of God, worthy of love and respect.

Life does need the supernatural to make sense - otherwise explain it, if you will. And yes, I am dissatisfied with what I have around me - it's called evil, selfishness, impatience, and on and on.

Let me clarify, your life may need the supernatural but mine does not. Everyone has their right to have whatever requisites they desire in their own lives. How about you tell me why you think life needs the supernatural. You are the one claiming the need for something that isn't there. Please do share

Ha-ha, you atheists will never take on the burden of explaining anything important. Like I said, I can't imagine how I could exist, if God does not. With no God, there can be no purpose. Why do you think you exist - don't say "for no reason", because that wouldn't be rational. And please, don't be ok with ignorance like some of your buddies, because that would be negligent. I'm sure atheists don't want to be known as deadbeats.

[Retorth]

So, it looks like my usage of the word works, you just missed it. See - "...or to any object [as in objective, purpose] regarded as sacred [as in important]..." - what is your important purpose in life?

I already said so from the start. Perhaps your usage of words needs improvement.

but I'm sure you worship something

This is probably where the misunderstanding came in. In any case, my purpose is simply my family.

Yes, of course - God allows suffering. I hope the family would seek to please God - just as I hope I would do if in their shoes. I send money to help people just like that, I wish I could do far more. Also, I believe God wants me to care for people in need.

But people still die everyday of causes that can be prevented. They ask to be saved but die horrible deaths, so how you can go to church every week, worship and thank some almighty power for what you have in your life, despite all the suffering around is beyond me. I respect your affirmation, I just don't think it makes sense one bit.

So you're going to let those hungry Africans starve to death? Me and Jesus disapprove.

I do not understand your response. I said:

I don't live for my enemies. I do not go around making enemies either. I recognize that there will always be assholes in this world but I don't go finding trouble.

And now you say I am letting hungry Africans starve? Africans aren't my enemies. I do not have any enemies. Please try and make some sense.

You narrow minded atheists block God out, if only you could open up your mind to the immensity of the creator of the universe. Look at people as made in the image of God, worthy of love and respect.

How can I open up my mind to the idea of an imaginary being that doesn't exist? Why do I say he doesn't exist? I'll share with you:

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

Your god has yet to prove himself to us. The only prove you have is in your bible which in itself is not infallible proof. Its contents is questionable at best.

Ha-ha, you atheists will never take on the burden of explaining anything important. Like I said, I can't imagine how I could exist, if God does not. With no God, there can be no purpose. Why do you think you exist - don't say "for no reason", because that wouldn't be rational. And please, don't be ok with ignorance like some of your buddies, because that would be negligent. I'm sure atheists don't want to be known as deadbeats.

With no god? There is no god to begin with. You cannot even explain god, can you? I wouldn't say I exist for no reason. But again, you are the one here claiming an imaginary being. The burden of proof falls on you to prove this being of yours as infallible.

I'll put it to you this way. Personally, if I am shown infallible evidence that there is a god, I will readily accept. Then again, I wouldn't have a choice because he would be real so it would be foolish to accept otherwise. However, as of now, he only exists in the bible which as I said above, is itself fallible. You don't even know who wrote the bible except to say "hundreds of people who were inspired, wrote it".

As you can see, I have nothing to lose and all to gain.

Now I ask you, for the sake of this debate, if you one day learn that god truly doesn't exist, since you say you live your life for god, what will you do then?

[theVOID]

What is there to live for, lad? What about life itself? Family, you know? We get one crack at this. I, for one, don't intend to waste it on my knees to some superstitious shit.

Yes. Saying life is worth living for life's sake is rather circular. Your next response of 'family' isn't good enough either - according to Jesus or me - what about all the strangers or enemies?
What do you intend to waste your life on? Because, according to you, the best it can be is a waste.

And I certainly do not share your apparent desire to spend eternity with your lips attached to jesus' ass.

Perhaps your colon will suffice for your lips? Then, obviously, I might ask you to take your head out of your own ass...whatever good that might do.

---

What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship?

Well we certainly don't live our life waiting for death or expecting judgement from the intergalactic dictator, we don't live our lives thinking that this is only the trial period or thinking that the best part of existence (heaven) isn't even part of this life.

That wasn't the question, but I applaud you for highlighting the obvious.

We don't spend our lives on our knees in prayer, or accepting ancient ideals passed down hundreds of generations, we don't spend our lives foolishly thinking that an ancient book had some kind of insight or waiting for rapture... I'd like to think we atheists as a whole (though i claim not to speak for anyone) like to look at life as an adventure; something to be lived and experienced....

Ok, so you finally got around to saying something that you would do. I have a question in response, naturally, which is: what does this, effectively, so called 'the adventure of life' consist of?

Explore life and the universe and arts and culture, music, literature, science, maths, philosophy but more importantly to enjoy yourself, do things that interest you, there is always a possibility of living a great life with your friends and family and bartender and kids and your partner... there are more things in this life to do than there is time to do it, so you have to enjoy our very existence because you're never getting another one.

I see no need to believe in an afterlife; It, along with religion is a concept developed by primitive, uneducated, superstitious men thousands of years ago to try and explain the universe. compared to the knowledge we have today their assumptions are laughable, there is no evidence to distinguish their assumptions from any other possibly imagined afterlife or reincarnation, only faith in the ideas of primitive men. There is no reason to believe all the functions of the mind(there is no soul) are anything but naturalistic and until evidence arises for an alternative theory i refuse to accept something that offers us no advantage or explanatory power, there is no need for any of the empty religious concepts, they are the product of superstition mixed with human curiosity, and they were completely wrong - it's an idiotic belief and an even more idiotic way to evaluate the universe.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I know you don't highly regard a higher power, but I'm sure you worship something. What is most important to you, what's the best thing?

You can be as sure as you like but you’d be wrong … atheists don’t "worship" a thing, what's important to us is exactly the same as what’s important to you and others … minus the religion.

If people weren't suffering somewhere then no one would have an opportunity to help anyone. And I believe that this life isn't all there is to it, so though it be painful - it's not all there is to it.

So your god created suffering so that other people could feel good about themselves for being nice ... and you worship a fucking bastard like that?

That's not good enough according to Jesus or me, what about all your enemies and strangers?

Why should one love enemies and strangers? An enemy is someone who means you ill ... that's not to say I don't give strangers the benefit of the doubt but if they're out to hurt mine or mine they'd better be ready for some serious pain because I fight dirty!

What does that mean? You live for nothing.

The former is answered above and the latter is just your opinion and inherently worthless.

Life does need the supernatural to make sense - otherwise explain it, if you will. And yes, I am dissatisfied with what I have around me - it's called evil, selfishness, impatience, and on and on.

Retorth is correct ... not only does life NOT require the supernatural to make sense, it is quite evidence that the supernatural (if accepted as an explanation) would utterly screw our ability to explain anything.

Ok, I guess that means as an individual I get to decide what's moral. Based off some story I heard: Is that your stereo over there buddy? I'll be taking that now, whether you want me to or not. See ya later, and don't try to enforce your rules on me as I walk out with the stereo.

That's a stupid example because, even as a moral relativist, we adhere to laws and local custom (no one says we don't), morality is largely determined by the society in which we live ... besides there's always a fist in the face which would stop your theft PDQ!

Ok then, me too - except I don't fear punishment so much. I like your stereo, thanks. I will die for this stereo if I have to.

SMACK!!!! Eco the idiot drops stereo and runs away bleeding from nose and mouth!

Yea, I guess that's why YHWH wrote a set of commands in stone. By the way, as you make all these assertions will you realize the importance of support? Now, I believe that I get to have your stereo, thanks - don't get in my way please. It wasn't always your stereo anyway - before you had it the store had it, and before that the factory...now it's my turn I believe.

There is no validatable evidence that your Yahweh exists. And you left the stereo behind when you ran away remember?

I expect its not as meaningless as you think. Now I know atheists don't worship God - the disbelief suggests that specifically, and I think I'm safe to come to that conclusion - so what do they worship (consider most important)? (in case you were wondering - I was fishing for information there from individual atheists).

Nothing, see above!

Ah, atheists do worship something after all. First you say the question is meaningless, then you go on and answer it...well, so be it. And, of course what they worship is related to their atheism - otherwise you might find atheists worshiping God.

Eco the dimwit misses the point again ... Padraic clearly said that SOME atheist worship material things but then again SO DO SOME THEISTS ... it's a normal human concept.

So you don't think anything is most important. You don't have a highest "reason for living". The purpose of life is life - that sounds redundant - perhaps you should put it in other words? Anyway, does anything else work like that - e.g. I work to work (not make money), I play to play (not to have fun), I eat to eat (not to get nourishment, I sleep to sleep (not to get rest), I talk to talk (not to communicate)?

To Padraic that is the purpose, me also though I also recognise my purpose is children, the future of the human race,, the hope that we will one day leave numbskulls like you behind as we set off to explore the galaxy.

Well, here you are proselytizing me, how contemptuous. Why would you chime in except to sell your own way of thinking? No one even asked you to participate you just jumped right in and began praising your way, and making my way look bad. Is the purpose of your disagreement just to disagree? Needless to say, I don't understand your way of thinking.

So, a theist comes to an atheist forum and bitches about an atheist that jumps in on his thread?

I suppose this is as good a point as any to point out that that is quite possibly the most naïve and stupid thing you've said yet!

Exactly. Why avoid explaining the mystery of what is known? Why do you insist on ignorance?

Ignorance? You mean ignorance of your god? Why are you ignorant of Zeus? Of Allah? Of Odin? Of Apollo? Of Quetzalcoatl? Of Zorb? Of the IPU?

Well, by worship I mean hold in highest regard - what's most important? Why would you avoid considering something of the highest importance? If you actually did that, you might get stuck on a decision - and die from inaction.

Define highest importance! I hold my wife in high regard, my children too.

Why would anything demand to be worshiped? If I thought God demanded worship, how could I reconcile it to the fact that you (among others) seem to get away with resisting His demand so easily?

Another dumb assertion ... if your god was real it doesn't leave much in the way of choice now does it?

Ok, so you finally got around to saying something that you would do. I have a question in response, naturally, which is: what does this, effectively, so called 'the adventure of life' consist of?

Exactly the same thing your life consists of ... minus the religion.

If you disagreed with the Nazis, as someone outside Nazi society, then could you, with your belief system, impose your will on the Nazis to stop what you considered "horrendous".

If I was able to stop the holocaust I suppose I would, yes.

Yea, and since nothing moral makes any sense anyway, what the Nazis did was right - and your opposition to what the Nazis did is right also. This must be impossible though, because two contradictory things cannot simultaneously be true. Plus, there's no way you could have stopped the Nazis, knowing that they were right.

They don't contradict because they are not me and I am not them! I can believe them wrong whilst they can believe the same of me. Yet another stupid assertion on your part.

Yea, don't critically think or do anything significant - if you can help it. That way you can focus on living life to the fullest, for you.

You beloieve what you do and you're telling me not to think critically? What a wingnut!

Yea, let's stay in your system of thought for this one. What God did must have been right, because He thought it was right. The Nazis thought what they were doing was right too, and to you - they were, even though you think they are wrong (and you're right for that, because your society told you so).

Ah but I don't have a problem with someone believing genocide is OK (I disagree but I don't have an issue with them holding the opinion) ... I DO however have a problem with morons who claim their god is good, that is supposedly loving and kind, the source of a consistent morality, yet wipes out an entire world! Of course I couldn't actually care less because it never fucking happened anyway!

This conversation isn't limited to only what you say - so answer the question and quit stalling. If you lived in Nazi society - who said murdering jews was good - would you happily murder jews?

I have no fucking idea! Given my current morality, no!

So, even though your society defines the death penalty as good - you disagree - why is that? If God legally wiped out almost all of mankind - you would disagree with that too - even though He would be right for doing such a thing. Now why would you think like that? Aren't we all just a bunch of chemical reactions anyway - not much different than plants or insects, you might say - so what's the harm in swatting an annoying gnat?

Because whilst my society defines what is moral, morals are not individual, I validate what I think and my conscience would rail against it.

Yes. Oh, well let's pretend instead that Hitler killed a bunch of Jews because he believed that was the right thing to do - and it was legal in his society. You would support him right?

No, why would I?

What do you think you are? A fucking Quaker?

Well, I'm not far off - I am using this computer here for communication purposes, but I generally avoid getting too caught up with high-tech stuff - specifically, I try to avoid relying on it. Do you have a problem with answer questions as they are asked, working to convey your message clearly, and stuff like that? Or should I prefer for you to beat around the bush all the day long and talk in code?

Almighty Zorb save us from morons!!!!

Me and Jesus disapprove.

And even if we accepted he was real do you think we’d give a shit what you and your favourite a zombie Jew thought?

God, indeed, makes it apparent that there is much more to life than family, friends, career, exploring new places, and games...namely God. You narrow minded atheists block God out, if only you could open up your mind to the immensity of the creator of the universe. Look at people as made in the image of God, worthy of love and respect.

Only a fool would say we lock a god out that we don’t believe in.

You are the one living for nothing though, because you cannot explain with even a shred of solid evidence why you even exist! Umm, what is a thousand years to God? Be patient, yet vigilant - or He will surprise you even more that you could imagine.

Er … we got a fairly fucking good idea actually and we don’t need a stupid magic-man in the sky to be a part of that explanation.

Ha-ha, you atheists will never take on the burden of explaining anything important. Like I said, I can't imagine how I could exist, if God does not. With no God, there can be no purpose. Why do you think you exist - don't say "for no reason", because that wouldn't be rational. And please, don't be ok with ignorance like some of your buddies, because that would be negligent. I'm sure atheists don't want to be known as deadbeats.

Evolution is why we exist.

Kyu

[fr0d0]

That's a pretty violent post Kyu. Apparently you've lost your ability to reason here.

[Kyuuketsuki]

That's a pretty violent post Kyu. Apparently you've lost your ability to reason here.

That's a matter of opinion but at least I'm willing debate ... unlike you!

Kyu

[fr0d0]

Wow!

Simply Wow Kyu

You squirm from debate more than anyone I've known and violently attack without provocation. You seek to scare people off with your impression of a hooligan. Congratulations on that.

[theVOID]

Brilliant Kyu!