If god were real...

[The Grand Nudger]

I thought we'd already covered this one (maybe another thread?), even in "lowly" human courts we have a well enough developed sense of ethics and law to hold parents culpable for the damage their children do, and people in general culpable for their complicity in a crime (which can include foreknowledge or a failure to notify authorities - ie do something). Now, we don't expect some random person with knowledge of say, a terrorist plot - to infiltrate the cell and prevent it - but when we start talking about godman.........all the reasons we don;t expect that melt away.

Your apologetics lack this understanding - but your god has an interestingly skewed notion of the same, with curses carried down. Bit like two grossly distorted carnival mirrors.

[Fruity]

A)God knows everything. He knows what will happen in the future, who will do it, how, when, etc. He creates angels and men. He allows the then not devil to turn devil. He knows that when he puts a temptation, man will eat it. He puts it anyway. Man eats it. He punishes man. He is all powerful. Nobody can make laws with out his consent. Man away from God shall go to hell. Man with God shall go to heaven. He knows man will sin. He allows it to happen. They deserve to go to hell. He states that the price of sin is death. He knows this means people will die and he will have to give his son to die as well. Continues with the plan. He sends his son to die. He knows that if he makes me, I will end up being atheist and go to hell. Makes me anyway. I go to hell. This makes him sad, because he's love.

B)God knows everything. He knows that if he creates man everything will be fucked up. Changes his mind.

c) God does not exist.

[Godscreated]

God did create Lucifer and He knew what Lucifer would decide to do, that still doesn't mean God desired evil to become a part of creation.
Answer this please, if you have a child and that child becomes a murderer does that make you a murderer? The way I see your reasoning you are, and should have to serve the same punishment your child does.

Poor analogy.

You admit right there that God knew of Lucifer's intentions...so God knew Lucifer would be evil, correct?

So, yes, if your child is a murderer that doesn't make you a murderer, but if you KNOW your child WILL be a murderer and do nothing about it....

If you had God's omniscience you would be scared to do anything. God knowing before hand that Lucifer would usher in evil does not make Him responsible for the evil, Lucifer is the guilty party.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL.......um.....whew boy. What on earth would an omniscient being have to fear? It's not like anythings going to sneak up on it.......you haven't really thought this shit through, have you? Is this why your god is crippled, it couldn't handle some aspect of it's omniscience (for some mystifying, unspoken, and likely non-existent reason), it's cowering in fear and some extra-dimensional hidey hole - terrified of doing anything?

That would explain alot.

[Godscreated]

God is omniscient and omnipotent.

God did create Lucifer and He knew what Lucifer would decide to do, that still doesn't mean God desired evil to become a part of creation.

You have basically contradicted yourself. If god was omniscient, he would have known that lucifer would turn against god. If god is omniscient, and he created lucifer knowing this, then god desired evil to become part of creation. Had he not wanted evil to exist, he would not have created lucifer due to his omniscience informing him of the outcome of creating such a being that would introduce evil into the world.

It doesn't matter if it was Lucifer or another angel it was going to be someone disobeying God. What you lack is understanding of the scriptures, God created the angels, mankind and any other beings capable of loving God for that very reason, God wanted His created ones to love Him. What is wrong with that, please tell me, what is wrong with that? God wanted His created ones to love Him freely, is there something wrong with that, tell me? Do you want others to love you because they want to, because they actually love who you are? This is what God wants, now maybe you want people to love you because they fill obligated to, that is not true love by the way. So God gave us free will to choose, He wants people to choose.

[The Grand Nudger]

It doesn't matter if it was Lucifer or another angel it was going to be someone disobeying God.

Categorically untrue. It was -always- going to be a very specific "someone" -your god is omniscient, remember, that shit is fixed.

What you lack is understanding of the scriptures, God created the angels, mankind and any other beings capable of loving God for that very reason, God wanted His created ones to love Him. What is wrong with that, please tell me, what is wrong with that?

It's remarkably selfish and self centered-just for starters-. I didn't create any children with the express and singular purpose of loving me. In fact, I expect that I'll have to earn and maintain that love, and in no way will that love -if i can earn and maintain it- be their purpose, their reason for being.......

God wanted His created ones to love Him freely, is there something wrong with that, tell me?

He knew whether they would or wouldn't they are not free, that shit is fixed, yet again.

Do you want others to love you because they want to, because they actually love who you are?

Well, seeing as I'm not creating people to love me...........and seeing as how our "wants" are powerless in the face of your gods omniscience and what that says about time and events.........and since no one knows any god in any case.......this one kind of crumbles under it's own pretentiousness.

This is what God wants, now maybe you want people to love you because they fill obligated to, that is not true love by the way. So God gave us free will to choose, He wants people to choose.

That would be unfortunate for god, because the way you describe him, his very nature prevents this desire from ever being fulfilled. His very nature - as you describe it, rules out any free will, any choice. He wants something which he cannot have. Apparently, he's also willing to throw a divine temper tantrum when this sad reality pans out exactly as it always would have - as he always knew it would have....devoid of all those things you claim he wants.

[Godscreated]

Free will can not exist with a god that is omniscient. If god is omniscient, he knows every choice anyone will ever make, before we ever make it, In a universe with an omniscient god, we would have the illusion of free will.

This has to be the most unreasoned and unreasonable analogy I've ever heard, I mean really, can you really believe such a weak statement. If a person does not know what decision he will make about anything, then that's free will. It doesn't matter whether God or you knows what decision someone will make, it's free will.

---

LOL.......um.....whew boy. What on earth would an omniscient being have to fear? It's not like anythings going to sneak up on it.......you haven't really thought this shit through, have you? Is this why your god is crippled, it couldn't handle some aspect of it's omniscience (for some mystifying, unspoken, and likely non-existent reason), it's cowering in fear and some extra-dimensional hidey hole - terrified of doing anything?

That would explain alot.

Hey go read it correctly this time, I said nothing about God being scared and for good reason. I've though it through for years and years, read and reread, studied and studied more, what have you done, read my statement for only what you wanted to see. This is what explains everything.

[Silver]

It doesn't matter if it was Lucifer or another angel it was going to be someone disobeying God.

Do you want others to love you because they want to, because they actually love who you are? This is what God wants, now maybe you want people to love you because they fill obligated to, that is not true love by the way. So God gave us free will to choose, He wants people to choose.

Then you have to think to yourself: perhaps god was worthy of being disobeyed. No matter how you look at it, god had foreknowledge of himself bringing evil into the world due to his omniscience. You can run yourself in circles all you want, attempting to remain convinced that your god is good, but in the end the logic has to bite that brain of yours and make you realize how gullible you have been. Hopefully.

You honestly have a very skewed sense of love. If god wanted us to love him of our own free will, he would not threaten us with the punishment of hell for not believing in him and not loving him. The way god expects his creations to love him derives from sociopathy.

[Tonus]

Do you want others to love you because they want to, because they actually love who you are? This is what God wants, now maybe you want people to love you because they fill obligated to, that is not true love by the way. So God gave us free will to choose, He wants people to choose.

God wants humans to love him freely and without obligation, but he presents them with a system of punishment and reward that leaves them with little choice. A reward that is the grandest reward one can enjoy, and a punishment that is the most horrible punishment that one can suffer. But they're not supposed to feel obligated?

[Tex]

I'm not so sure its a "punishment/reward" system. The pros and cons of the choice are laid out, but you cannot choose to be buddy-buddy with God because you want the benefits. God doesn't allow people to use him. If I go try to be friendly with Bill Gates for his money and Gates knows this, he's not going to give me anything but a security officer to escort me off the property. You legitimately have to want God in your life. If you don't want God in your life, and many throughout history have not, then that determination will end up in the con. God is only partially responsible for sending people to hell; those people walk there on there own free will and then lock the door from the inside. God allows this.

God has has never taken away the opportunity to anyone to have the relationship. Everyone has the opportunity. Hell is where opportunity is lost, but never by God's decree. Again, hell is locked from the inside.