What is your alternative to abortion?

[Kayenneh]

I said murder. I didn't say killing in war. These things are completely different. It is your decision to go to war, or to put your life on the line in any profession, it is not your decision to be murdered.

Now that's complete hypocrisy. And I did not mean the soldiers who die in their profession, I meant the ones they kill. Not everyone who gets killed in a war is a soldier. How can you justify that to yourself, when you think aborting an embryo is murder?

And just out of curiosity, are you for or against death sentences?

[Mr_Dew7]

Well, I value all human life intrinsically. I feel that unborn babies have the right to life.

Do you agree with male infant circumcision or baptism, even though those are done against the infant's will? Do you agree with teaching children only your version of the truth according to your religion, even though that is going against their will to choose for themselves what they wish to believe?

How can you be against abortion if you do other things that disrespect the rights of infants/children?

I see your point, but nothing you have listed is nearly as dramatic as killing the fetus. I agree with those things, as it is in the Bible. And I will of course teach my son the things that I believe are right. Would you not do the same? Will your children not grow up believing in what you believe in? Won't they grow up believing in no God? The subject of debate here is not whether or not I will choose to teach my son the truths of God, because that is a given. As it is a given that all parents teach their children what they believe is right. Will I force it on my son? No, I won't make my son do anything he doesn't want to do. But I will have him baptised, should he want that, and he will grow up in a faith filled home.

[Mononoke]

Did you not ask me to differentiate between a fetus and a baby? I did the best I could. Which probably wasn't very good, since they are the same thing.

Oh, okay; I am sorry for misunderstanding your post. You listed a bunch of items, yes, but you missed the major difference (see next point).

Well I guess the issue here is then this: if it's a fetus, then its okay to abort it, but if it is a baby, it is not okay. My argument is that they are one in the same.

And it has been shown that they are not the same. Baby = born. Foetus = unborn. No matter how close they are developmentally, no matter how many features you can name that they share (which can be done for saying a dog is a cat too, of course), that is an important difference and it is why I think abortion is okay.

And I feel that there are better alternatives to abortion. Maybe contraception, or abstinence.

I agree that contraception is better than abortion. However, contraception is for when you are having sex. Abortion is an option for a different time -- after you have had sex.

[Foxaèr]

Would you not do the same? Will your children not grow up believing in what you believe in? Won't they grow up believing in no God?

Not at all. Since I am gay, I will not be having any children of my own. I could adopt, but that is not something I want either because I have no interest in raising anyone.

If I was to have children, however, I would teach them what I believe yet not that it was the only option. I would inform them that there are many available options, and that they can choose whatever they want as far as belief or lack thereof is concerned. Something I would teach them to not do is proselytize. Of course, in the end, all I can really do is teach them to the best of my ability, because they will choose their own paths.

[Mr_Dew7]

Did you not ask me to differentiate between a fetus and a baby? I did the best I could. Which probably wasn't very good, since they are the same thing.

Oh, okay; I am sorry for misunderstanding your post. You listed a bunch of items, yes, but you missed the major difference (see next point).

Well I guess the issue here is then this: if it's a fetus, then its okay to abort it, but if it is a baby, it is not okay. My argument is that they are one in the same.

And it has been shown that they are not the same. Baby = born. Foetus = unborn. No matter how close they are developmentally, no matter how many features you can name that they share (which can be done for saying a dog is a cat too, of course), that is an important difference and it is why I think abortion is okay.

And I feel that there are better alternatives to abortion. Maybe contraception, or abstinence.

I agree that contraception is better than abortion. However, contraception is for when you are having sex. Abortion is an option for a different time -- after you have had sex.

Wouldn't a little foresight do wonders in our modern culture? Abortion could be prevented is all I'm saying. We can't come to an agreement on the differences, because I think a fetus is an unborn baby, but still a baby, and you think that a fetus and a baby are not the same at all. I agree to disagree.

[KichigaiNeko]

No Drew. You don't value human life intrinsically.... you are shit scared of death intrinsically just as your death cult has inculcated to you. Well done.

[Mr_Dew7]

No Drew. You don't value human life intrinsically.... you are shit scared of death intrinsically just as your death cult has inculcated to you. Well done.

Who are you to say what I do and don't value? And who are you to tell me what I fear? I certainly don't fear death! Why should I? And really? Death cult? How did you become so backward? And they did not inculcate me in any way. I wasn't indoctrinated either unless you think stoners and world of warcraft nerds forced me into my current belief system. I wasn't a part of any group when I was saved by God. I didn't begin meeting other Christians until after I was saved.. you don't know what you are talking about.

[KichigaiNeko]

No Drew. You don't value human life intrinsically.... you are shit scared of death intrinsically just as your death cult has inculcated to you. Well done.

Who are you to say what I do and don't value?

Just like you who say what I do and do not value

And who are you to tell me what I fear?

Just like you who say what I do and do not value

I certainly don't fear death!

Then why worry about the death of a bunch of cells?

Why should I? And really? Death cult? How did you become so backward?

Christianity is nothing more than a Judaic death cult..... I thought you knew this.

And they did not inculcate me in any way.

Are you sure? Have you not "learned your belief" from your parents and priests?

I wasn't indoctrinated either unless you think stoners and world of warcraft nerds forced me into my current belief system.

Why would I think that a video game has influenced you? Unless of course you are a victim of inculcation and a user

I wasn't a part of any group when I was saved by God.

Yes you were. You were that group of "no hope" who were convinced that they "needed" this "god" to be whole and "saved".... What .............you collect the whole set or something?

I didn't begin meeting other Christians until after I was saved.. you don't know what you are talking about.

So says you who know nothing of me, my life, the bullshit I have had to endure because of mindless, insignificant plebeians like yourself who don't have the wit to know that they have options and can be much more than their petty little gods say they can be whilst being butt-fucked over for their hard earned $$

Spare me your empty platitudes and vomitous rhetoric Drew. You are shit scared and only "Feel" safe because you think that some imaginary friend is watching your back. You are pitied more than anything.

[Tonus]

I thought I would post this argument from something I was just skimming:

The crux of my argument in favor of abortion is that killing is basically okay. Human beings kill everything. We kill cows because they taste good, trees because we like furniture, germs because they make us feel bad, deer because we love hunting, cockroaches because they are disgusting, and thousands of other species because we just hate those rain forests so much… Pretty much every species on Earth has been killed by humans at some point for some reason.

“Wait a minute,” I hear you cry. “That may all be true but we draw the line at killing other humans!” No, we don’t. We kill old people (euthanasia, and insurance companies will even pay for it), we kill criminals (capital punishment), we kill ourselves (suicide), we kill each other (war), we kill in self-defense, we kill when we are temporarily insane, and we pull the plug on people who are in comas. I haven’t even started listing all the indirect ways we kill people: drug companies pushing dangerous drugs, insurance companies not paying for lifesaving procedures, people starving in Africa because our fat asses can’t be bothered to share some food, athletes playing dangerous sports, smoking, alcohol, and McDonald’s.

99.99% of the time it’s perfectly okay and legal to kill any living thing you want. The only exception is that you can’t kill another human being for no apparent reason. That’s murder. That’s where the line is drawn.

http://www.philipbrocoum.com/?p=402

That seems to be an argument from the perspective of practicality. For example, we do not outlaw the use of automobiles, although they are a direct or indirect cause of tens of thousands of deaths (and hundreds of thousands of injuries) every year. We do not outlaw alcohol even though it is a factor in many of those deaths and injuries. As a society, we work diligently to make driving safer; automobile design, safety features, speed limits, speed bumps, penalties for driving recklessly or impaired, and so on. But we have determined that automobiles are a necessity, and that banning alcohol was a failure. We accept that there will be deaths as a result of an activity that we protect with laws.

I understand the argument from practicality in that sense. It can make people uncomfortable because it clashes with the emotional approach (you... you mean its okay to LET PEOPLE DIE??? Well, yeah- do YOU drive a car?). I support allowing a woman to terminate a pregnancy caused by rape or incest. I think it's partly an emotional argument, but there is a practical side to it as well. A woman forced to give birth to a child under those circumstances faces additional emotional suffering that will affect her child regardless of how much she may love him/her. The other practical arguments for abortion would include slowing population growth, not wanting to bring an impaired person into the world, or realizing the economic impact that having a child entails. Those tend to make me uncomfortable on varying levels, in that I still consider each 'clump of cells' to be a potential person whose life was cut short. But that is an emotional argument, not a practical one.

One quibble with his statement is the part where he defines murder as "kill[ing] another human being for no apparent reason." As I understand it, murder is by definition a pre-meditated act, and therefore the person who commits murder often has a reason and it may be quite apparent. It may not be an acceptable reason ("he wouldn't give me his wallet," "the bastard cut me off twice!" etc) but it's quite apparent.

[pocaracas]

Can I add some more kindling?

The world population is increasing. It is irresponsible of the current population to keep on increasing it. Allowing abortion to occur only lets people dent this increase a little.

People should abort more!