Are you for or against the separation of church and state?

[Godscreated]

---

Where did you get your info, even if it's accurate 2 billion people is far more than a handful as you stated, it's nearly 30%

---

.

I said a relative handful. When more than 70% of the world's population is in danger of your god's wrath, those who are saved amount to a relative handful.

2 billion a relative handful, your sense of numbers is warped. You did not tell me where you got those numbers.

---

You say you do not want God to save you and the rest of those who aren't saved probably feel the same. So why should He force you to live in eternity with Him if that's not your desire or anyone else for that matter. You said He should save those who do not desire it, so why did you change your mind.

---

I did not say that he should save those who do not desire it. My post that started this exchange specifically asked why he would not reveal himself and "provide a path to heaven for all who would believe."

He has provided a way, just because you do not like it doesn't change the fact that He has provided a way to eternal life. You have already stated you do not want God, even if He revealed Himself, and you stated God should have provided a way for those who would believe. Sight of God seems as you've stated is not a reason to accept God, so God knowing this (it is in scripture by the way) provided a way for those who will believe period. So your statement holds no water. Seems God has found a way to weed out those who would never be sincere.

By the way, this is another tactic used by theists when their backs are against the wall. I'm pointing out how illogical it is for the god you worship to hide himself, and you pretend that we both believe that he exists. He cannot force me to do anything, because he doesn't exist. I have no expectations where god is concerned.

My back is not against the wall and it is irresponsible to presume so. No, your wanting God to do it your way, the Omniscient God of salvation has provided the perfect plan, the plan that insures all who will believe will come to Him. As far as pretending you believe would be irresponsible, I know you do not believe, I do think it's unfortunate.

Please show me the endless excuses Christians use for God not presenting Himself to man in a way everyone can know He's real.

Well, just in this topic, we have had either a variation or a direct use of these:

- We shouldn't "tempt" god.
- We shouldn't presume to demand something from god.
- We shouldn't be lazy, we should find it ourselves.
- The challenge itself is a 'selfish trap that you won't fall into.'
- God 'doesn't work that way.'
- "You're using scripture in a way that's against God."
- You don't see him because you won't/don't believe.
- God gave proof way back when, it's in the Bible.
- God will do as he pleases, maybe he'll reveal himself, maybe not.
- You have a comprehension problem, when you overcome it, we'll talk.
- You won't accept my reasoning.

I'll stop at those. Those are only yours, and in the past few pages of this topic. They're mostly a variation of "I/God don't have to explain myself/Him to you" or "you can't understand until you learn to look at it the way I do." Those are excuses, you use those phrases as a substitute for a rational consideration of the actions of your god and whether or not they're logical or sensible.

Those are not excuses, excuses are for those who have no valid reasoning. Most of those can be backed by scripture and the ones that can not you presumed they were said. As far as the comprehension problem, you read into scripture what you want to hear not what it actually says, that would be your problem not God's nor mine. For one to be dishonest with one's self is to look down on one's self.

[The Grand Nudger]

Those are not excuses, excuses are for those who have no valid reasoning. Most of those can be backed by scripture and the ones that can not you presumed they were said.

b-mine

Right, so, excuses.

[Tonus]

2 billion a relative handful, your sense of numbers is warped. You did not tell me where you got those numbers.

Which numbers, the population of Earth and the number of Christians? A Google search. Are the numbers off? You've made a pretty big deal out of everything except the point of discussion, for some reason.

He has provided a way, just because you do not like it doesn't change the fact that He has provided a way to eternal life. You have already stated you do not want God, even if He revealed Himself, and you stated God should have provided a way for those who would believe. Sight of God seems as you've stated is not a reason to accept God, so God knowing this (it is in scripture by the way) provided a way for those who will believe period. So your statement holds no water. Seems God has found a way to weed out those who would never be sincere.

Aaaand here we go with more excuses. 'You don't like the way he did it.' 'People won't believe if they see, so he provided a different way.' You keep taking my personal explanation of how I regard your god as a default explanation for every other person on the planet who doesn't accept Christ, thus giving you a convenient excuse for why god won't reveal himself.

My back is not against the wall and it is irresponsible to presume so. No, your wanting God to do it your way, the Omniscient God of salvation has provided the perfect plan, the plan that insures all who will believe will come to Him. As far as pretending you believe would be irresponsible, I know you do not believe, I do think it's unfortunate.

Aaaand even more excuses. 'It's irresponsible to assume I'm making excuses.' 'God's plan is perfect, it doesn't need to be the way you want it to be.' No reasoning behind any of it, but it's the only way to explain why god acts so illogically.

Those are not excuses, excuses are for those who have no valid reasoning. Most of those can be backed by scripture and the ones that can not you presumed they were said. As far as the comprehension problem, you read into scripture what you want to hear not what it actually says, that would be your problem not God's nor mine. For one to be dishonest with one's self is to look down on one's self.

Like I said, this is where these discussions tend to end up. I've tried to avoid this kind of discussion because it's bound to disappoint. There's nothing to learn from someone who eventually falls back on 'you just don't understand.' It's not that your beliefs are difficult to understand, it's just that they're impossible to reconcile without abandoning sanity.

[smax]

My faith in Christ has grown into knowledge, He is more real to me than you are. Now you have once again my true belief. I want fall for your little childish trick and you get upset, you want others even the atheist on this site to take you serious then you need to grow up and act responsible. If anyone is having doubts it would be you, seems to me you are desperate to find out if God exist or not, use scriptures they can guide you to the answer. A/S/K

Don't worry, your Atheism secret is safe with me... err, and the rest of us, of course.

---

---

So it's "petty and selfish" to make a sincere plea to god to reveal himself, because it's against his will? And you don't see how transparent your claim is?

Doesn't it feel frustrating to realize that you have to make up so many excuses for why god won't reveal himself, to the extent of considering it petty and selfish to want it? You've made up a shy, miserable little god who won't show himself, and who resents so much as a request that he stand up for his believers and save the lives of billions. And then you try to convince yourself that he's 'good' and 'loving,' even though he created a "plan from before time" that won't save more than a relative handful of people that he condemned.

---

.... GC made reference to a scripture in Luke 4 (and Matthew) where the devil was tempting Jesus to prove himself. Jesus then quotes Dueteronomy, saying "It is said, "Do not put the Lord thy God to the test".

That's correct

However, in Matthew 14, Peter asks Jesus to prove himself, and Jesus does:

Incorrect.

25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

29 “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

You have a comprehension problem don't you, I'm sorry I did not realize you had this problem, why I'm not sure. However, you need to be careful when driving, wouldn't want you to injure someone because you come upon a stop sign and forget what it means, please do be careful.
When you are able to overcome this problem we'll be able to have some kind of a discussion about scripture that will not confuse you.

Besides this contradiction, I provided 3 carefully selected scripture for GC to negate his reasoning for not agreeing to my terms:

The first one was to show that people of faith are supposed to be able to tap into the power of god on command.

I gave you viable reasoning, you didn't want to accept it, that's not my fault.
Referring to the mustard seed, Christ wasn't telling His disciples that they should move mountains if they had that small amount of faith. Christ was teaching them with such a small amount of faith God could work great spiritual wonders through them, and that's exactly what happened with them.
I understand that comprehension thing you have.

The second one was to demonstrate a man of faith calling on god to reveal him in order to prove his claims about god.

The third one showed god encouraging his follower to make claims about him that he would then support with a demonstration of power.

Both of these scriptural events were planned by God, not Moses or Elijah, they were demonstrating what God could do when they had the faith of a mustard seed, and it happened. Thought I would let you know so you would not have to struggle with that comprehension thing, wouldn't want you to further damage that brain of yours.

At the end of the day, GC has no good reason to refuse my terms other than the fact that both he and I know that god doesn't exist, and that he will be made to look foolish even trying to verify god's existence.

Well here it's the beginning of a new day, but anyway I've now given even more reasonable answers to refuse your childish terms. Why want you go to the scriptures and do as they say, I mean you're so afraid there's a God and you will miss out and are afraid the atheist here will make fun of you doing it own your own.

Funny I how I somehow get it on scriptures you happen to agree with me about, but I have a "comprehension problem" with the ones I don't see your way.

Your newfound Atheism is becoming more and more apparent by the second, as your already defensive posture has now grown into flat out insecurity.

But, by all means, continue using selective reasoning with scripture and telling yourself whatever you think you need to think in your futile attempts to subvert the inevitable.

You are an Atheist now, even if it is only be definition. You and I both know that god is powerless. You and I both have the same level of faith in his power, which is none.

I only wish I could be there when you start to see this whole thing unraveling before your own eyes, as you start asking questions that you never thought you'd want the answers to. To be there when you find yourself arguing logic and reason over blind faith and mindlessness.

So many things I'm going to miss out on, yet know with utter certainly will happen.

Just remember, some things are worth dying, your faith was one of them.

[Ryantology]

You say you do not want God to save you and the rest of those who aren't saved probably feel the same. So why should He force you to live in eternity with Him if that's not your desire or anyone else for that matter. You said He should save those who do not desire it, so why did you change your mind.

Here's the problem I think most of us have with it.

If it was just a matter of getting sweet heavenly rewards for getting on the Yahweh bandwagon, if it was nothing but a positive incentive, who would care? I don't want those rewards, they do not appeal to me in the slightest. So, when I die, I just want to die. If you leave me to do that, then that's okay.

The problem is that God sees fit to punish us for not jumping on the bandwagon. It is not enough for him to just let us non-believers experience oblivion. Salvation is not a positive incentive, because what are we being saved from? An eternity of pain and misery in hell. I recognize no authority which considers this acceptable, because no crime, no collection of crimes, no lifetime aggregation of crimes, deserves eternal punishment, and it's worse still when you consider that the almighty and omnipotent God does not define sin as things which are negative or detrimental or harmful or dangerous. Some sins have these qualities, but a lot don't, and God doesn't care either way. God doesn't care about the murder victim, he cares about being the victim himself, because he presumes to think that any crime committed is a crime against himself. That's insane and stupid. If someone shoots me, or my kid, I couldn't give a fuck less what God thinks about it (especially when he is directly responsible for it happening).

If I'm wrong about everything and end up in hell, I'm okay with that. I live my life for myself, my loved ones, my friends, and for whatever I can contribute to humanity as a whole. I would not live my life for a being as monstrous and hateful as your god, and if he sends me to hell, he still can't rob me of the satisfaction that I have lived a happy, fulfilling life as an independent person, and I can take solace in the fact that the company will be much more interesting.

Please show me the endless excuses Christians use for God not presenting Himself to man in a way everyone can know He's real.

You have a knack for issuing challenges which are insultingly easy to overcome. I found these on the internet, within about 20 minute's time.

---

1. If God made us unable to deny his existence, we would be unable to choose to love Him.
   
2. He communicates his presence using subtle intimations so as to not be forceful.
   
3. People don't see him because they're blind
   
4. God has not opened their eyes
   
5. Those looking for proof have no idea what they are looking for.
   
6. He will show Himself soon.
   
7. If you're not one of His children you won't hear Him.
   
8. That is why it is called "faith".
   
9. He doesn't need to.
   
10. You want to SEE even though the creations are before you.
    
11. The point was to send us to earth & test us to see if we would earn our right to live with him again
    
12. Why would god need to go around proving his self to people?
    
13. The Bible represents everything which God has revealed to man.
    
14. If someone is closed to the idea, no amount of evidence will ever convince them.
    
15. faith suffers from too much freedom, too many temptations to disbelieve.
    
16. He did show up. His name is Jesus.
    
17. It's only when someone is born again by the Spirit of God that they have genuine, enduring, faith that doesn't need God to be a constant "visible" presence here on earth.
    
18. If the Lord Jesus returned for a week, went on television interviews, performed miracles, and then went back up to Heaven, within a month or two people would have written it off as just another one of those odd things that happen, and their minds would be filled with the next most exciting things going on in the news.
    
19. He wants only those people with good souls to live in heaven
    
20. The universe itself reveals the existence of God.
    
21. He doesn't show himself because he respects that you will make the right decision through faith.
    
22. You just have preconceived notions as to what He should look like.
    
23. God can never be reached because of sin.
    
24. You can't see the wind, you can only see things that the wind moves. God is like that.
    
25. He shows himself in the miracle of birth/life.
    
26. He came to Moses as a burning bush.
    
27. If He shows himself to us the CREDIBILITY of our FAITH won't exist.
    
28. He does, everyday, some people just miss it.
    
29. Jesus has been such a success that no other prophets after have been required.
    
30. Everything of himself that he has already shown is purely out of mercy and love.
    
31. He shows himself in nature every single day.
    In people's smiles..their helping hands when you need help.
    A child's smile...or tear.
    
32. He has given us all the evidence we need but you look in the wrong places
    
33. God cannot be in the presence of sin, without destroying it.
    
34. Because we must prove ourselves to him
    
35. Personal guilt before a Holy God drives the guilty from the presence of God.
    
36. God demonstrates who He is through man.
    
37. It is we, not Him who hides, and He who pursues us, not us who seek to know Him
    
38. He has determined that we are to be saved by faith, not by empirical “proof”.
    
39. Even if He should desire to fully reveal Himself, it is impossible for us to fully know Him.
    
40. The Israelites still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land.
    
41. He shows himself to Christians in ways that Christians understand.
    
42. There is no excuse for anyone in the United States to say they need a sign from God to believe. That is the biggest excuse sent from Satan.
    
43. The true reason of unbelief is because people don't want to take time to read the Bible, they want someone to tell them what the Bible says and that is their biggest mistake.
    
44. Because there's enough evidence that his existence is obvious.
    
45. God does only what is best for us in each instance.
    
46. How would an Omnipotent Being reveal Himself to finite beings?
    
47. So God is not interested only in our knowledge of Him.
    
48. God has left us many clues, from the Awareness and yearning inside each of us, the incredible Bible that is a book like no other book, and the Creation that simply cannot be explained with natural terms.
    
49. God wants us to love him (and thus, of course, also love all our fellow human beings). But love must be voluntary.
    
50. It must take a great deal of ignorant faith to read the Gospels and still deny that God revealed Himself to mankind.
    

---

The idea that if God to reveal himself, physically, to the world, my free will to choose to love him would be erased, is illogical. I do not love my mother and father because they are my mother and father. I do not love them because I know they physically exist. I love them because they have demonstrated, physically and emotionally, that they loved me and cared for me. They were the ones changing my diapers, feeding me, giving me advice and support. They were the ones teaching me. They are the reason I am the man I am today, for better or worse. That is why I love my parents. If they were bad people, if they hurt me, belittled me, the fact that they are my parents, the fact that they physically exist, would be irrelevant.

If God appeared to the world, I would be forced to accept the fact that he exists. That is it. Whether or not I would pursue the sort of personal relationship Christians insist God wants would depend not on God's existence at this point, it would depend on what he does. Would thousands of children still starve to death every day? Would thousands die in agony? Would people die in random accidents? Would a select few have far more than they need while the vast majority has too little? Then, I would choose to spurn the God who allows it all to happen.

So far, all the 'evidence' we have for God's existence is a holy book no different from any of a thousand other holy books. Unless I go out of my way to pretend otherwise, it depicts God as a distinctly negative force, the enemy and tormentor of the humans he created, an injust and capricious tyrant who cares only about himself. I can't love my brother because I don't have a brother. If someone insists that I do, I won't believe it until solid evidence is presented. And, even if he is real, if his personality resembles God's, I could never love him.

If God was real and it was obvious, the practice of apologetics would not be necessary. Like everything Godschild ever says, apologetics is nothing but lies and horse shit. I need no apologetics. I don't need fifty different justifications. I need only state the obvious: what does not exist cannot show itself.

[Godscreated]

---

2 billion a relative handful, your sense of numbers is warped. You did not tell me where you got those numbers.

---

Which numbers, the population of Earth and the number of Christians? A Google search. Are the numbers off? You've made a pretty big deal out of everything except the point of discussion, for some reason.

I was just asking a question, I believe I've addressed the discussion well, you're welcome to disagree.

---

He has provided a way, just because you do not like it doesn't change the fact that He has provided a way to eternal life. You have already stated you do not want God, even if He revealed Himself, and you stated God should have provided a way for those who would believe. Sight of God seems as you've stated is not a reason to accept God, so God knowing this (it is in scripture by the way) provided a way for those who will believe period. So your statement holds no water. Seems God has found a way to weed out those who would never be sincere.

---

Aaaand here we go with more excuses. 'You don't like the way he did it.' 'People won't believe if they see, so he provided a different way.' You keep taking my personal explanation of how I regard your god as a default explanation for every other person on the planet who doesn't accept Christ, thus giving you a convenient excuse for why god won't reveal himself.

Boy you are squirming for something to use in your defense. Excuses, excuses and on and on, can't you do better than this? You are the one complaining about the way God reveals His plan, you are the one who says seeing God changes nothing. There is no so about it, God made His plan before time and it has not nor will not change, you need to either get over your complaint or accept God does things according to His will.

---

My back is not against the wall and it is irresponsible to presume so. No, your wanting God to do it your way, the Omniscient God of salvation has provided the perfect plan, the plan that insures all who will believe will come to Him. As far as pretending you believe would be irresponsible, I know you do not believe, I do think it's unfortunate.

---

Aaaand even more excuses. 'It's irresponsible to assume I'm making excuses.' 'God's plan is perfect, it doesn't need to be the way you want it to be.' No reasoning behind any of it, but it's the only way to explain why god acts so illogically.

Boy you're hung up on excuses to pull your butt out of the fire, God's plan is perfect, I wanted His salvation and you apparently do not, so where is your complaint that God is illogical. Seems to be working for both of us, but I'm sure as usual you'll find something to complain about.

---

Those are not excuses, excuses are for those who have no valid reasoning. Most of those can be backed by scripture and the ones that can not you presumed they were said. As far as the comprehension problem, you read into scripture what you want to hear not what it actually says, that would be your problem not God's nor mine. For one to be dishonest with one's self is to look down on one's self.

---

Like I said, this is where these discussions tend to end up. I've tried to avoid this kind of discussion because it's bound to disappoint. There's nothing to learn from someone who eventually falls back on 'you just don't understand.' It's not that your beliefs are difficult to understand, it's just that they're impossible to reconcile without abandoning sanity.

I'm not falling back on 'you just don't understand' I used it necessarily as a positive statement, one that's true, you do not understand anything about God, I understand little but it is enough to fall in love with Him. My knowledge of God makes perfect sense to me and I've never abandoned sanity to understand, on the contrary I've become more real because of God, being a fake is for those who live life for their own purpose.

---

---

My faith in Christ has grown into knowledge, He is more real to me than you are. Now you have once again my true belief. I want fall for your little childish trick and you get upset, you want others even the atheist on this site to take you serious then you need to grow up and act responsible. If anyone is having doubts it would be you, seems to me you are desperate to find out if God exist or not, use scriptures they can guide you to the answer. A/S/K

---

Don't worry, your Atheism secret is safe with me... err, and the rest of us, of course.

You're really a sick puppy aren't you, either that or a pre-teen trying to show off, grow up would you.

---

---

That's correct


Incorrect.


You have a comprehension problem don't you, I'm sorry I did not realize you had this problem, why I'm not sure. However, you need to be careful when driving, wouldn't want you to injure someone because you come upon a stop sign and forget what it means, please do be careful.
When you are able to overcome this problem we'll be able to have some kind of a discussion about scripture that will not confuse you.


I gave you viable reasoning, you didn't want to accept it, that's not my fault.
Referring to the mustard seed, Christ wasn't telling His disciples that they should move mountains if they had that small amount of faith. Christ was teaching them with such a small amount of faith God could work great spiritual wonders through them, and that's exactly what happened with them.
I understand that comprehension thing you have.


Both of these scriptural events were planned by God, not Moses or Elijah, they were demonstrating what God could do when they had the faith of a mustard seed, and it happened. Thought I would let you know so you would not have to struggle with that comprehension thing, wouldn't want you to further damage that brain of yours.


Well here it's the beginning of a new day, but anyway I've now given even more reasonable answers to refuse your childish terms. Why want you go to the scriptures and do as they say, I mean you're so afraid there's a God and you will miss out and are afraid the atheist here will make fun of you doing it own your own.

---

Funny I how I somehow get it on scriptures you happen to agree with me about, but I have a "comprehension problem" with the ones I don't see your way.

I agreed with you on one simple verse that any child of 4 years could understand. The rest I had to explain to you and in doing so, you've run off on your atheist rant instead of addressing the issue, which is you know nothing about scripture. You really should quite using scripture to defend your point, you fail badly.

But, by all means, continue using selective reasoning with scripture and telling yourself whatever you think you need to think in your futile attempts to subvert the inevitable.

Selective reasoning, show me how I've given different meaning to different scripture.

[Godscreated]

---

You say you do not want God to save you and the rest of those who aren't saved probably feel the same. So why should He force you to live in eternity with Him if that's not your desire or anyone else for that matter. You said He should save those who do not desire it, so why did you change your mind.

---

Here's the problem I think most of us have with it.

If it was just a matter of getting sweet heavenly rewards for getting on the Yahweh bandwagon, if it was nothing but a positive incentive, who would care? I don't want those rewards, they do not appeal to me in the slightest. So, when I die, I just want to die. If you leave me to do that, then that's okay.

God's universe, He created it, God's rules, God is King whether you like it or not, your choice within His plan. Simple really.

The problem is that God sees fit to punish us for not jumping on the bandwagon. It is not enough for him to just let us non-believers experience oblivion. Salvation is not a positive incentive, because what are we being saved from? An eternity of pain and misery in hell.

If believing in God was all this was about he might just let you drift off into oblivion, but there's much more. God created you for worship in a relationship with Him, a relationship of love. I'm not even going to get into worship in this thread, leave it to another. Here's the problem that apparently you've missed, sin, there is a payment to be made for sin, just as there's a payment involved for breaking man's law. The punishment fits the crime with God even though you do not think so. Without forgiveness of one's sin the sin is everlasting, the reason it's everlasting, because it is against the everlasting God, so everlasting punishment is required from the just God. Let me say something here, I do not intend it to be offensive, but I'm glad it's an everlasting punishment. If it were not then how could I trust God to give me an everlasting life of peace, justice works equally in both directions with God. So I hope you can understand you're not being saved from everlasting punishment, you're being saved from sin, you're guiltiness against the perfect ever loving God of salvation. The punishment is for sin not forgiven, the requirement is accepting Christ being sacrificed for man's sin, sacrificed not to God but for man.

I recognize no authority which considers this acceptable, because no crime, no collection of crimes, no lifetime aggregation of crimes, deserves eternal punishment, and it's worse still when you consider that the almighty and omnipotent God does not define sin as things which are negative or detrimental or harmful or dangerous. Some sins have these qualities, but a lot don't, and God doesn't care either way.

There is no one not even God who says you have to recognize His authority, this however does not change in the least the authority He has over everyone. I've explained above that crime is eternal when committed against the eternal God, there's no way out of it, it is that way period. All sin is detrimental and harmful, in one way or the other. God doesn't care, really, He gave His Son to die for our sins, the Creator part of the Godhead sacrificed Himself for His corrupted creation and we were the ones who corrupted His creation and continue to this very day.

God doesn't care about the murder victim, he cares about being the victim himself, because he presumes to think that any crime committed is a crime against himself. That's insane and stupid. If someone shoots me, or my kid, I couldn't give a fuck less what God thinks about it (especially when he is directly responsible for it happening).

God is not responsible for sin, we are. Yes God does care about the victim, the family and friends of the victim. His caring goes beyond our understanding and this is where faith plays a big role in how we relate to God.
You sound like those who would take away our guns, blame the gun not the criminal, the criminal has the power over the gun not the other way around. Besides you can not know how many times God has keep you and your family from harm and despair, none of us can.

If I'm wrong about everything and end up in hell, I'm okay with that. I live my life for myself, my loved ones, my friends, and for whatever I can contribute to humanity as a whole. I would not live my life for a being as monstrous and hateful as your god, and if he sends me to hell, he still can't rob me of the satisfaction that I have lived a happy, fulfilling life as an independent person, and I can take solace in the fact that the company will be much more interesting.

There will be no company in hell, none that you will see or have a conversation with, actually no interaction whatsoever. You will hear their suffering and they yours, that's about as close as you will ever come to anyone.
I want to share something here, it took me a long time to realize that putting God before everything else was truly the way to live. When one puts God first in their life one finds how much more important others are, and unlike you putting yourself first (look above at what you wrote). Your family should come second, then others in some order of importance, then yourself last, this is where one can experience the joy of God beyond belief. When my dad died I learned this in a way that goes beyond explanation. Oh yea, I was extremely sad dad was gone and am to this day, that was 12 years ago, but I saw God as I had never before. I know dad is with Him not to ever suffer again. When God is first He can take suffering and make good come from it.

I'm not going to address the excuse stuff you posted,I did that in the previous post, look there for my answer.

The idea that if God to reveal himself, physically, to the world, my free will to choose to love him would be erased, is illogical.

I've said just that, Lucifer did it through his choice and so could you. This very thing will happen at judgment, people will be in His presence and still reject Him, screaming and kicking.

I do not love my mother and father because they are my mother and father. I do not love them because I know they physically exist. I love them because they have demonstrated, physically and emotionally, that they loved me and cared for me. They were the ones changing my diapers, feeding me, giving me advice and support. They were the ones teaching me. They are the reason I am the man I am today, for better or worse. That is why I love my parents. If they were bad people, if they hurt me, belittled me, the fact that they are my parents, the fact that they physically exist, would be irrelevant.

I agree wholly with you, what you seem to forget about God is to choose to be His child, and you will experience the same things but in a greater way, a way I can not explain to you and you accept it as the truth, these are the revelations from God that you hear Christians speak of. Until you allow Him to be Father you can't know.

If God appeared to the world, I would be forced to accept the fact that he exists. That is it. Whether or not I would pursue the sort of personal relationship Christians insist God wants would depend not on God's existence at this point, it would depend on what he does. Would thousands of children still starve to death every day? Would thousands die in agony? Would people die in random accidents? Would a select few have far more than they need while the vast majority has too little? Then, I would choose to spurn the God who allows it all to happen.

I can not answer that question as you have put it and neither can anyone else. You are asking questions that Christians ask God, "why God do these thing have to happen." I have some answers to this situation but as a nonbeliever you would not understand, not because you're dumb not at all, I do not think that, it's a spiritual thing that Christians spend years growing into and some never develop a relationship deep enough to understand.

So far, all the 'evidence' we have for God's existence is a holy book no different from any of a thousand other holy books. Unless I go out of my way to pretend otherwise, it depicts God as a distinctly negative force, the enemy and tormentor of the humans he created, an injust and capricious tyrant who cares only about himself. I can't love my brother because I don't have a brother. If someone insists that I do, I won't believe it until solid evidence is presented. And, even if he is real, if his personality resembles God's, I could never love him.

If God was real and it was obvious, the practice of apologetics would not be necessary. Like everything Godschild ever says, apologetics is nothing but lies and horse shit. I need no apologetics. I don't need fifty different justifications. I need only state the obvious: what does not exist cannot show itself.

Let's address the last thing you said first. What does exist is not required to show itself, the belief that what needs to show itself is yours and that is not reality. Wild animals can live out a life right under your nose and you will never know they are there, unless you have trained senses to see. Go into a forest and they can be even more mysterious, a mountain lion can live without ever being seen, unless one has the trained senses. God has left evidence of His existence and through the Bible we can detect these things, the Bible is a study book of God and His purpose and points directly to Him when one pays attention.

As far as I'm concerned apologia is about doctrinal differences between denominations, and I do not engage in arguments with Christians unless one is out of line on the basics of salvation, salvation has a given foundation that all should find agreement on. I doubt I've given you one answer that's satisfactory, but I told you how I see things and this is what's important in my life.

[KichigaiNeko]

I am for the removal of tax exemptions of religions and the relegation of religion as a hobby, with no influence on State laws that have to cover all people.

[The Grand Nudger]

God's universe, He created it, God's rules, God is King whether you like it or not, your choice within His plan. Simple really.

Laying aside how silly this is - it pains me to see a fellow american - and ostensibly a fellow southerner...capitulating to the legitimacy of a monarchy. To add insult to injury - it's a divine monarchy that's being offered up - in a thread about the separation of church and state.

[smax]

Godschild,

With all due respect to your time as a Christian, I have yet to see even a single shred of evidence that you could teach me anything abut exegesis. You see what you want to see in scripture because you dred what it really says, as almost all Christians do.