Cheney: Obama Lied!

[Minimalist]

It has to do with the abject hypocrisy of fascists like Cheney. Also something is not much in doubt.

[DeistPaladin]

how the flying fuck did this argument get reduced to whether the red or the blue team has the most draft dodgers? fucking right wingers you have too give them credit they do know how to distract a populace

I no longer even try to get A-Theist to answer any questions he doesn't want to answer. I give him two chances and when he ignores both, I think it's fair to say everyone knows why.

[A Theist]

how the flying fuck did this argument get reduced to whether the red or the blue team has the most draft dodgers? fucking right wingers you have too give them credit they do know how to distract a populace

I no longer even try to get A-Theist to answer any questions he doesn't want to answer. I give him two chances and when he ignores both, I think it's fair to say everyone knows why.

Neither of your questions have any relevance since the whole crux of your argument depended on whether or not GW joined the Texas Air National Guard to avoid the draft...all you've done was repeat smear efforts and rumor mongering against Bush that was originally hatched by the DNC during the 2004 presidential campaign...other than posting a link to some politically partial leftist blog site, you've provided no evidence to prove that Bush joined the Air National Guard to avoid the draft...Nothing!...

[festive1]

I thought it was common knowledge that all branches of the National Guard were havens for draft dodgers during Vietnam...
I'll have to double check and site my source (a collegiate-level textbook specifically on Vietnam), but I believe joining the National Guard actually became difficult at some point in the 1960's because of all the men enlisting to avoid being drafted... I think I'm remembering that correctly... I'll check my source when I've got time and post back.

[DeistPaladin]

Observe class, the modern American conservative, in a desperate effort to preserve his discredited ideology and collapsing worldview, runs through three primary tactics when under fire:

1. Avoid and ignore any embarrassing questions. Change the subject and just stick to your talking points no matter how many times the embarrassing question is repeated.

2. Utilize the "both sides do it" defense to justify the behavior of conservatives.

3. If all else fails, when pushed into a corner, just shamelessly lie your ass off.

Neither of your questions have any relevance since the whole crux of your argument depended on whether or not GW joined the Texas Air National Guard to avoid the draft...

And here, class, we see the cornered conservative now resorts to lying. He pretends to be completely oblivious to the OP despite how the question of the OP was repeated for him twice and linked to for his convenience.

Someone in the Obama administration or campaign actually stated, suggested or implied that Al Qaida, a decentralized terror conglomerate with independent cells working all over the world was now expected to fold up its tent because Bin Laden is dead?

He was asked to comment on the OP twice and ignored the question both times. In his fevered demagogue brain, he has to be aware that Republicans are lying in an effort to stoke the dying embers of this pseudo-scandal of Benghazi. However, as a conservative, he can't admit that. So he utilizes the technique perfected by the late, great political career of Sarah Palin. Ignore the question and talk instead about what you want to talk about.

Notice, class, how the OP's question has nothing to do with either W Bush or his war record. And in the paranoid conservative brain, everything always relates to some form of liberal persecution.

This thread also provides an excellent example of how conservatives are adept at seizing control of any narrative, even when completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed. Observe his entry into this thread:

Quote:
So you respect a miserable draft dodging coward (Cheney) who is very brave when someone else's life is on the line.

....Draft dodging coward? I assume you're talking about Bill Clinton...

An excellent example of conservative debate tactics: Red herring coupled with "both sides do it". A combination tactic that continued when he engaged with me:

DeistPaladin Wrote:

Hey A-Theist, I was hoping you or another Republican would drop by this thread and maybe shed some light on the main question in the OP.

...you should have added IOKIYAD to your OP...that way you or another Democrat wouldn't sound so much like leftist hypocrites...

The IOKIAR reference was to this last part of the OP, introduced as a side issue to the main point that he wanted to avoid discussing at all cost:

And since Cheney used the dreaded "L" word, can I assume it's no longer considered "shrill" to use that word or is this another case of IOKIYAR?

This issue has nothing to do with war records or draft dodging but whether or not one is permitted to say "lied" without being denounced by conservative-enabling pseudo-centrists in the media as being "shrill". The taboo on the use of the four-letter "L word" is an important victory for conservatives since lying is a cornerstone of their debate tactics.

So having been pushed into a corner, his last resort is to try to muddy the waters and desperately make the entire discussion about W's service in the national guard, re-litigating a fact that is not in dispute by anyone, specifically that he used his family's influence to escape the draft into Vietnam.

As with many examples of conservative faux-outrage, it's sometimes difficult to determine what exactly is the point in dispute. Was it that he was in the national guard? No. Was it that the draft for the Vietnam War was on at the time? No. Was it that those in the National Guard would be safe from fighting in Vietnam? No. Was it that wealthy, powerful families used their influence to get their children into these plum, cushy positions to avoid the draft? Common practice at the time. Did that happen here? Yes, as admitted to by the very people who helped make that happen.

A few months before Mr. Bush would become eligible for the draft, Barnes says he had a meeting with the late oilman Sid Adger, a friend to both Barnes and then-Congressman George Bush.

"It's been a long time ago, but he said basically would I help young George Bush get in the Air National Guard," says Barnes, who then contacted his longtime friend Gen. James Rose, the head of Texas' Air National Guard.

"I was a young, ambitious politician doing what I thought was acceptable," says Barnes. "It was important to make friends. And I recommended a lot of people for the National Guard during the Vietnam era - as speaker of the house and as lt. governor."

Indeed, it was a plum position, sought after by hundreds of applicants, and helped him avoid the draft. The only alternative is to assert that it was coincidence that W managed to get in without any help.

And even if this is true, that it's all coincidence and Barnes is lying, Bush still joined an organization that helped him stay out of Vietnam (he could have just gone to Vietnam like Kerry did instead of joining the National Guard).

Ergo, he's still a chickenhawk.

So what will our cornered conservative do next? We'll just have to observe, class.

[Whateverist]

Poke him a little with a stick and see if he'll move again. This is interesting.

[festive1]

Well, here's what I found, all bolded emphasis is mine:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pol...072899.htm

It was May 27, 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War. Bush was 12 days away from losing his student deferment from the draft at a time when Americans were dying in combat at the rate of 350 a week. The unit Bush wanted to join offered him the chance to fulfill his military commitment at a base in Texas. It was seen as an escape route from Vietnam by many men his age, and usually had a long waiting list.
Bush had scored only 25 percent on a "pilot aptitude" test, the lowest acceptable grade. But his father was then a congressman from Houston, and the commanders of the Texas Guard clearly had an appreciation of politics
...
Retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, then personnel officer in charge of the 147th Fighter Group, said the unit was short of its authorized strength, but still had a long waiting list, because of the difficulty getting slots in basic training for recruits at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. Martin said four openings for pilots were available in the 147th in 1968, and that Bush got the last one.
... But others say that it was not uncommon for well-connected Texans to obtain special consideration for Air Guard slots. In addition to Bush and Bentsen, many socially or politically prominent young men were admitted to the Air Guard, according to former officials; they included the son of then-Sen. John Tower and at least seven members of the Dallas Cowboys.
...
In an interview, Barnes also acknowledged that he sometimes received requests for help in obtaining Guard slots. He said he never received such a call from then-Rep. Bush or anyone in the Bush family.
However, when asked if an intermediary or friend of the Bush family had ever asked him to intercede on George W.'s behalf, Barnes declined to comment. Kralj, in his deposition, said he could not recall any of the names he gave to Gen. Rose.

Aside from this online article, I consulted some texts I own...
From Present Tense: The United States Since 1945 3rd edition. By: Schaller, Schulzinger, and Anderson. Published in 2004

The wealthy and educated, those most aware of the intricacies of the system, knew best how to avoid the most dangerous duty. The military force that the United States sent to Vietnam consisted disproportionately of men from working-class and poor backgrounds. The best estimate indicates that 25 percent of the force was poor, 55 percent were working class, and 20 percent were middle class.
...
Three-quarters of the 16 million men who did not serve in Vietnam admitted that they had changed their life plans to stay away from Vietnam, and a majority (55 percent) said that they actively took steps to avoid the draft.

And from Major Problems in the History of the Vietnam War, 3rd edition. Edited by: Robert J. McMahon. Published in 2003
Excerpt from "What did You do in the Class War Daddy?" by James Fallows from The Washington Monthly, October, 1975.

...buses from the next board began to arrive. These bore the boys from Chelsea, thick, dark-haired young men, the white proles of Boston. Most of them were younger than us, since they had just left high school, and it had clearly never occurred to them that there might be a way around the draft. They walked through the examination lines like so many cattle off to slaughter. I tried to avoid noticing, but the results were inescapable. While perhaps four out of five of my friends from Harvard were being deferred, just the opposite was happening to the Chelsea boys.

The lower classes of society were the ones being drafted to Vietnam. Middle, upper-middle, and the upper classes knew how to work the system to get deferments. Bush is staunchly upper class, his father was a US Representative at the time, he got into a National Guard unit with a waiting list (without waiting, and despite having the lowest acceptable score). Any more dots needed?

ETA: Beaten by Diest, damnit... More succinct and perhaps clearer than my post.

[Minimalist]

I thought it was common knowledge that all branches of the National Guard were havens for draft dodgers during Vietnam...
I'll have to double check and site my source (a collegiate-level textbook specifically on Vietnam), but I believe joining the National Guard actually became difficult at some point in the 1960's because of all the men enlisting to avoid being drafted... I think I'm remembering that correctly... I'll check my source when I've got time and post back.

Yes, the Air National Guard, and got himself trained on the F-102A...an obsolete aircraft which was withdrawn from active duty in Vietnam 4 years before Bush ever saw one. It was pretty unlikely that the 102A would ever be committed against the Russians if we didn't trust it against the fucking North Vietnamese so it was a pretty shrewd career choice by Dubya. Of course, he was probably drunk or stoned most of the time anyway.

[DeistPaladin]

ETA: Beaten by Diest, damnit... More succinct and perhaps clearer than my post.

That's OK Festive, you elaborated with even more detail and were much more thorough. I salute you for having more patience to go digging deeper.

[festive1]

I like excuses to dig through my books and I do enjoy your breakdown of conservative arguments!