Cheney: Obama Lied!

[A Theist]

Observe class, the modern American conservative, in a desperate effort to preserve his discredited ideology and collapsing worldview, runs through three primary tactics when under fire:

1. Avoid and ignore any embarrassing questions. Change the subject and just stick to your talking points no matter how many times the embarrassing question is repeated.

2. Utilize the "both sides do it" defense to justify the behavior of conservatives.

3. If all else fails, when pushed into a corner, just shamelessly lie your ass off.

Neither of your questions have any relevance since the whole crux of your argument depended on whether or not GW joined the Texas Air National Guard to avoid the draft...

And here, class, we see the cornered conservative now resorts to lying. He pretends to be completely oblivious to the OP despite how the question of the OP was repeated for him twice and linked to for his convenience.

Someone in the Obama administration or campaign actually stated, suggested or implied that Al Qaida, a decentralized terror conglomerate with independent cells working all over the world was now expected to fold up its tent because Bin Laden is dead?

He was asked to comment on the OP twice and ignored the question both times. In his fevered demagogue brain, he has to be aware that Republicans are lying in an effort to stoke the dying embers of this pseudo-scandal of Benghazi. However, as a conservative, he can't admit that. So he utilizes the technique perfected by the late, great political career of Sarah Palin. Ignore the question and talk instead about what you want to talk about.

Notice, class, how the OP's question has nothing to do with either W Bush or his war record. And in the paranoid conservative brain, everything always relates to some form of liberal persecution.

This thread also provides an excellent example of how conservatives are adept at seizing control of any narrative, even when completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed. Observe his entry into this thread:

Quote:
So you respect a miserable draft dodging coward (Cheney) who is very brave when someone else's life is on the line.

....Draft dodging coward? I assume you're talking about Bill Clinton...

An excellent example of conservative debate tactics: Red herring coupled with "both sides do it". A combination tactic that continued when he engaged with me:

DeistPaladin Wrote:
...you should have added IOKIYAD to your OP...that way you or another Democrat wouldn't sound so much like leftist hypocrites...

The IOKIAR reference was to this last part of the OP, introduced as a side issue to the main point that he wanted to avoid discussing at all cost:

And since Cheney used the dreaded "L" word, can I assume it's no longer considered "shrill" to use that word or is this another case of IOKIYAR?

This issue has nothing to do with war records or draft dodging but whether or not one is permitted to say "lied" without being denounced by conservative-enabling pseudo-centrists in the media as being "shrill". The taboo on the use of the four-letter "L word" is an important victory for conservatives since lying is a cornerstone of their debate tactics.

So having been pushed into a corner, his last resort is to try to muddy the waters and desperately make the entire discussion about W's service in the national guard, re-litigating a fact that is not in dispute by anyone, specifically that he used his family's influence to escape the draft into Vietnam.

As with many examples of conservative faux-outrage, it's sometimes difficult to determine what exactly is the point in dispute. Was it that he was in the national guard? No. Was it that the draft for the Vietnam War was on at the time? No. Was it that those in the National Guard would be safe from fighting in Vietnam? No. Was it that wealthy, powerful families used their influence to get their children into these plum, cushy positions to avoid the draft? Common practice at the time. Did that happen here? Yes, as admitted to by the very people who helped make that happen.

A few months before Mr. Bush would become eligible for the draft, Barnes says he had a meeting with the late oilman Sid Adger, a friend to both Barnes and then-Congressman George Bush.

"It's been a long time ago, but he said basically would I help young George Bush get in the Air National Guard," says Barnes, who then contacted his longtime friend Gen. James Rose, the head of Texas' Air National Guard.

"I was a young, ambitious politician doing what I thought was acceptable," says Barnes. "It was important to make friends. And I recommended a lot of people for the National Guard during the Vietnam era - as speaker of the house and as lt. governor."

Indeed, it was a plum position, sought after by hundreds of applicants, and helped him avoid the draft. The only alternative is to assert that it was coincidence that W managed to get in without any help.

And even if this is true, that it's all coincidence and Barnes is lying, Bush still joined an organization that helped him stay out of Vietnam (he could have just gone to Vietnam like Kerry did instead of joining the National Guard).

Ergo, he's still a chickenhawk.

So what will our cornered conservative do next? We'll just have to observe, class.

First, to get this out of the way...

Did that happen here? Yes, as admitted to by the very people who helped make that happen.

...those very people who were cited in the CBS report, originally aired September 8, 2004, were discredited after it was found that so-called documents purported to be from Bush's former CO, the late Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, were found to be forgeries...also from the CBS report that you cited...

EDITOR'S NOTE: A report issued by an independent panel on Jan. 10, 2005 concluded that CBS News failed to follow basic journalistic principles in the preparation and reporting of this Sept. 8, 2004 broadcast.

....

Also from CBS regarding their reporting on Bush's military service...

Four CBS News employees, including three executives, have been ousted for their role in preparing and reporting a disputed story about President Bush's National Guard service.

The action was prompted by the report of an independent panel that concluded that CBS News failed to follow basic journalistic principles in the preparation and reporting of the piece. The panel also said CBS News had compounded that failure with a "rigid and blind" defense of the 60 Minutes Wednesday report.

Asked to resign were Senior Vice President Betsy West, who supervised CBS News primetime programs; 60 Minutes Wednesday Executive Producer Josh Howard; and Howard's deputy, Senior Broadcast Producer Mary Murphy. The producer of the piece, Mary Mapes, was terminated.

"We deeply regret the disservice this flawed 60 Minutes Wednesday report did to the American public, which has a right to count on CBS News for fairness and accuracy," said CBS Chairman Leslie Moonves.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-665727.html

From Wkipedia:

It has been said[by whom?], during the 1968–1974 period, Presidents Johnson and Nixon decided against calling up National Guard units for service in Vietnam. However, military documents show during the Vietnam War, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam.

In 1999, Ben Barnes, former Democratic Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives and Lieutenant Governor of Texas, gave testimony in a deposition for a lawsuit related to the Texas lottery; and following the deposition, his lawyer issued a statement to the press. According to the statement, Barnes had called the head of the Texas Air National Guard, Brigadier General James Rose, to recommend Bush for a pilot spot at the request of Bush family friend Sidney Adger. Rose and Adger were deceased at the time of the deposition and press release. The statement also said, "Neither Congressman Bush nor any other member of the Bush family asked Barnes' help. Barnes has no knowledge that Governor Bush or President Bush knew of Barnes' recommendation." While working as an active fundraiser for John Kerry, Bush's opponent during the 2004 U.S. Presidential campaign, Barnes repeated that he used his political influence to preferentially refer people to the National Guard, including Bush.

Both George W. Bush and his father have stated that they did not ask Adger to intercede and were unaware of any action he may have taken. Walter Staudt, the colonel in command of Bush's squadron, has stated that he accepted Bush's application without receiving any outside pressure to do so.

Pretty convenient for Barnes, (who you quoted and who was also a fundraiser for John Kerry in the 2004 presidential campaign), that both witnesses who could have verified his claims that he helped Bush get into the ANG were deceased at the time of his interview with CBS...

The 'Killian' Documents:...

The "Killian documents" were initially claimed by CBS to have come from the "personal files" of the late Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, Bush's squadron commander during Bush's Air National Guard service. They describe preferential treatment during Bush's service, including pressure on Killian to "sugar coat" an annual officer rating report for the then 1st Lt. Bush. CBS aired the story on September 8, 2004, amid more releases of Bush's official records by the Department of Defense, including one just the day before as the result of a FOIA lawsuit by the Associated Press.[44]

The Killian documents were alleged to be fakes, starting with a Free Republic web posting by Harry MacDougald, a conservative Republican lawyer posting under the blogger name, "Buckhead." MacDougald and multiple fellow bloggers pointed out that the formatting shown in the documents used proportional fonts that did not come into common use until the mid-to-late 1990s and alleged that the documents were therefore likely forgeries.[45][46]

The forgery allegations subsequently came to the attention of the mainstream media, especially after experts also questioned the documents' authenticity and lack of a chain of custody.[47][48][49] The original documents have never been submitted for authentication. The man who delivered the copies, Lt. Col. Bill Burkett, a former officer in the Texas Army National Guard and outspoken Bush critic, claimed that he burned the originals. Burkett admitted lying to CBS and USA Today about where he had obtained the papers and eventually expressed doubts of his own about their authenticity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._B...ontroversy

You still haven't proven that Bush joined the ANG to avoid the draft...You still haven't proven with credible documentation that Bush used his family's influence to gain a pilot's spot in the ANG...All you did was repeat a smear effort and rumor mongering that was hatched by the DNC during the the 2004 presidential campaign, and posted a CBS link to flawed and discredited reporting...

Ergo, he's still a chickenhawk.

Therefore, you're still FOS.

Oh, the point of your OP? You take such a long-winded and drawn out boring approach in your posts that whatever point you're trying to make gets lost in your tangled up mess...

Someone in the Obama administration or campaign actually stated, suggested or implied that Al Qaida, a decentralized terror conglomerate with independent cells working all over the world was now expected to fold up its tent because Bin Laden is dead?

Someone actually made that outrageously preposterous claim?

...

It was Barack...he bragged during his campaign that Al Qaeda had been decimated...As far as I see it, Barack implied that Al Qaeda had folded up its tents and was no longer a real threat...





Do I think he lied? Yes...Do I think there's a cover up over the Benghazi terrorist attacks? Yes...Do I think that He and Hillary and Susan Rice lied about those attacks when they said an anti-islam video was responsible? Yes...

[festive1]

What is the coverup involved in the Benghazi attack exactly?? Someone said it was motivated by the anti-Islam video, turns out they were wrong. Contrary to popular belief, the POTUS doesn't directly oversee every single thing the government does. Someone gave a press conference without checking their in-box first and wasn't on the same page as everyone else... How is that Obama's fault? How is that a coverup? It was a mistake plain and simple. Her career is over, isn't that enough?

[ideologue08]

What is the coverup involved in the Benghazi attack exactly?? Someone said it was motivated by the anti-Islam video, turns out they were wrong. Contrary to popular belief, the POTUS doesn't directly oversee every single thing the government does. Someone gave a press conference without checking their in-box first and wasn't on the same page as everyone else... How is that Obama's fault? How is that a coverup? It was a mistake plain and simple. Her career is over, isn't that enough?

This is one of the reasons why I hate US politics with a fiery passion. It is unhealthy for partisanship to get in the way of facts, the Dems will always support Obama no matter what and the Repubs will always support a Republican POTUS no matter what. It is quite clear that Obama has been one of the worst Presidents in the history of the country when it comes to admin secrecy, cover-ups, targeting journalists, clamping down on civil liberties. Did you know that Obama prosecuted more people under the 1917 espionage act than all previous presidents combined? That is the sign of a monster.

Both Rice and Clinton both fed the country (and the international community at the UN) that it was the video that was to blame for the Benghazi attacks, when it wasn't. It's also clear that there was an election coming up, so they were frightened to death at mentioning the fact that terrorists have done the job. Moreover, it was the US that intervened in Libya, and especially to help the folks in Benghazi, so the idea that the people of Benghazi turn around to bite back is a national embarrassment and a cock-up by the admin.

But of course, you won't hear that from the Obama lap-dogs at CNN, MSNBC, HBO etc. They will support Obama no matter what. But you know what? That's changing quickly, as the scale of Obama and Holder's atrocities against American civil liberties becomes clear, journalists will turn the screw as they are doing now. So far, Obama has for far too long been able to get away with it by simply pointing to the nutter tea-baggers and crazy far right commentators like those at FOX and suggesting that they will hate him no matter what, which is true. Just because the right-wing is far worse than the Dems, does NOT mean Obama is a saint. In fact, he is a monster. The sooner you Americans realize that, the better. the kind of stuff Obama does is something unthinkable in Europe, absolutely unthinkable.

[A Theist]

What is the coverup involved in the Benghazi attack exactly?? Someone said it was motivated by the anti-Islam video, turns out they were wrong. Contrary to popular belief, the POTUS doesn't directly oversee every single thing the government does. Someone gave a press conference without checking their in-box first and wasn't on the same page as everyone else... How is that Obama's fault? How is that a coverup? It was a mistake plain and simple. Her career is over, isn't that enough?

Are you serious?! They knew within 24 hours that the Benghazi attack was an organized terrorist attack...Do you actually believe that something on this scale would be kept from the POTUS? Five days later, on 9/16/2011, Susan Rice hit five Sunday morning news cast shows and blamed an anti- islamic video for a so-called 'mob reaction', that was clearly known to be an organized terrorist attack on 9/12/2011...and her career should be over, as well as Barack's and Hillary's... they flat out lied! It was a cover up to save the election for Barack (IMO)...

[festive1]

Funny how it is overlooked which party was responsible for legislation such as the Patriot Act and the general expansion of unchecked presidential powers. Yes, Obama should have chucked it, along with numerous other Bush policies that he's continued and expanded upon. But power is rarely laid down by the hands of the few who hold it. Congress needs to challenge these policies, a much worthier pastime than attempting to overturn ObamaCare, again, and failing, again, right? But what American recognizes and appreciates congressional power? Not the average one... I will pose this question: Is it more likely these infringements on civil liberties will cease under republican or democratic leadership?
The only reason I'm a registered Democrat is so I can vote in the primaries. I don't think Obama is a saint. I think he is a pushover in the domestic policy arena. He could also lead his party more effectively to enact real changes. He is fighting an uphill battle, though, with the Republicans, whose sole goal is to fight him tooth and nail on every-single-thing. The US needs to break up the two party system, because it simply doesn't work. A coalition government would work better IMO. Too many people don't like either party. These people need more options.
As to Benghazi, I still don't see the scandal. It is not in the POTUS's scope of duties to personally ensure all people who work for the government are on the same page. It's not an impeachable offense. If every president who lied to the American people was impeached... And I still think it was a miscommunication on the administration's end. Rice didn't have her ducks in a row. Shit happens. She is out of a job, as she should be for making this magnitude of a blunder. Just take a deep breath and let it go.

[Minimalist]

It was a cover up to save the election for Barack (IMO)...

Too funny, jackass. The republicunts saw to that when they nominated that shitstain, Romney.

[DeistPaladin]

Misdirection and Poisoning the Well. I wasn't talking about Bush's service in the National Guard. I was talking about how he got in and his motive for doing so.

I even allowed for the possibility that Barnes was lying and the Bush family was telling the truth. Even still, Bush went into the National Guard instead of putting his ass on the line in Vietnam.

Unless you can prove he tried to go to Vietnam but was instead forced into the National Guard against his will, he remains a chicken hawk.

It was Barack...he bragged during his campaign that Al Qaeda had been decimated...As far as I see it, Barack implied that Al Qaeda had folded up its tents and was no longer a real threat...

Decimated =/= gone and no longer a threat.

Nice try.

Do I think he lied? Yes...Do I think there's a cover up over the Benghazi terrorist attacks? Yes...Do I think that He and Hillary and Susan Rice lied about those attacks when they said an anti-islam video was responsible? Yes...

Nobody cares what you think. Prove any or all of these allegations. Good luck.

[Minimalist]

Between voting ( for the 37th time to repeal Obama's Health Care bill ) and this asinine fixation on Benghazi the republicunts are merely showing that they have no capacity to govern at all.

No one cares except the idiots in the bubble.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/public-...oll-shows/

PP’s newest national poll finds that Republicans aren’t getting much traction with their focus on Benghazi over the last week. Voters trust Hillary Clinton over Congressional Republicans on the issue of Benghazi by a 49/39 margin and Clinton’s +8 net favorability rating at 52/44 is identical to what it was on our last national poll in late March. Meanwhile Congressional Republicans remain very unpopular with a 36/57 favorability rating.

Voters think Congress should be more focused on other major issues right now rather than Benghazi. By a 56/38 margin they say passing a comprehensive immigration reform bill is more important than continuing to focus on Benghazi, and by a 52/43 spread they think passing a bill requiring background checks for all gun sales should be a higher priority.

[Tonus]

"Decimated" might be an accurate term for the damage done to Al Qaeda over the past decade. We may well have knocked off 10% of their leadership figures. But like the mafia, there are probably plenty mid-level guys who would love a chance at sending impressionable young lunatics to kill and maim innocents. All in the name of a peaceful religion, of course.

[A Theist]

Misdirection and Poisoning the Well. I wasn't talking about Bush's service in the National Guard. I was talking about how he got in and his motive for doing so.

I even allowed for the possibility that Barnes was lying and the Bush family was telling the truth. Even still, Bush went into the National Guard instead of putting his ass on the line in Vietnam.

Unless you can prove he tried to go to Vietnam but was instead forced into the National Guard against his will, he remains a chicken hawk.

It was Barack...he bragged during his campaign that Al Qaeda had been decimated...As far as I see it, Barack implied that Al Qaeda had folded up its tents and was no longer a real threat...

Decimated =/= gone and no longer a threat.

Nice try.

Do I think he lied? Yes...Do I think there's a cover up over the Benghazi terrorist attacks? Yes...Do I think that He and Hillary and Susan Rice lied about those attacks when they said an anti-islam video was responsible? Yes...

Nobody cares what you think. Prove any or all of these allegations. Good luck.

Decimated =/= gone and no longer a threat.

Nice try.

You were the one who asked the question...

Someone in the Obama administration or campaign actually stated, suggested or implied that Al Qaida, a decentralized terror conglomerate with independent cells working all over the world was now expected to fold up its tent because Bin Laden is dead?

Someone actually made that outrageously preposterous claim?

...Barack lied. Yes, Bin laden was dead, but Al Qaeda wasn't decimated as he 'stated', 'suggested' or 'implied'...if Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were that clueless about the events in Benghazi then this has to be the most inept out of touch administrations in U.S. history...No president, including Barack, can be that ignorant and uninformed...Unless you can prove that Barack had no knowledge at the time that the attacks on Benghazi weren't organized terrorist attacks, he remains a liar...

I wasn't talking about Bush's service in the National Guard. I was talking about how he got in and his motive for doing so.

..."Nobody cares what you think. Prove any or all of these allegations. Good luck."