Pope Francis defends atheists

[pocaracas]

You're making me write more... -.-'
I'm going to break these quotes in a more readable way. Hope you don't mind.

1. There are several religions
2. Religions do not share gods... although some of those gods seem to have a common predecessor.

2. Religions have different concepts of who God is. Only one of them is true.

Or none... Never forget that perfectly valid option.

3. Any religion has origins in a very specific location, at a very specific time... often in a very small group of people. Sounds like a brewery of fiction.

3. The Judeo-Christian faith begins with the creation of man and woman. Why would anyone want to make up a religion for ulterior motives? We are all seeking an explanation for why we exist and why the world exists. Christianity does not have the flavor of any myth. Thousands died defending the truth and refusing to convert to another religion. It does not make sense if they died for a lie.

Thousands keep dying for other faiths... what makes their deaths any less (or more) valid than the deaths for your faith?

And when I spoke about the origin of a particular religion, I didn't mean the creation myth of said religion. I meant where and when in the actual world that myth arose.

4. I'd expect a god worthy of that title to present itself to everyone in a similar fashion.. instead, we get different groups of people with different sets of gods... a sign that someone in that group of people made it up... and spread the word. If you want to counter this with god showing up to different people in accordance with their local specifics, then you're full of it, because this god of yours would be just plain stupid to do that, for it would have (and has) resulted in inter-religious conflict.

4. God revealed Himself to man through the prophets. Finally, He sent His son to reveal God more fully. A God who loves us would not want to keep us in the dark.

Yeah... prophets... see below, in mental problems. About his son, talk to Min... he's much more knowledgeable on where that myth came from than me.

It wouldn't keep us in the dark? Would it provides us with different lights so that we'd fight over who has the right light?
Would it keep us in the dark for some 20~30 thousand years?

5. All religions claim a few miracles that happened in the past and about that small group of people that made it up in the first place... Sounds like something made up with the sole intention of providing "proof" for the gullible.

5. Catholics have recorded miracles for 200 years. Why would they make it up and risk damage to their credibility? They have no motive to make it up. I have experienced some miracles myself. They happen all the time.

awesome.... the gullible then manufacture their own miracles, based on their own lack of knowledge to explain perfectly natural phenomena... awesome self-perpetuating mechanism.
Do tell: what miracles have you experienced?

6. All accounts of human-god interaction are remarkably similar to what is reported by present-day people who require psychological attention.

6 "require psychological attention." So you don't believe in anything that is supernatural? Anyone who relates supernatural events is crazy? Explain why supernatural things are not possible.

No... you explain why it's possible. The burden of proof for those supernatural events is on the person claiming them, not on the person who doesn't buy it.
If magic is possible, then... I'll have some of that, please!

7. Religion evolution.... first we got animism and shamanism, then polytheism, then monotheism. If there was (an) actual god(s) that actually showed itself(themselves) to the people, then it(they) must have done so to those first shamans... so they would have to be ones who got it right... Everything else is just quackery.

7. [T]he Judeo-Christian faith goes back at least 6000 years. True, other religions have elements of truth, but that does not mean they have the whole truth the way Christianity does. Christianity is the most rational and logical of all of them. On top of that, none of their founders claimed to be God or rise from the dead like Jesus did.

It's funny how the muslims say exactly the same thing about their Allah.

And I'm willing to wager most, if not all, other adherents of any other faith will claim something like that about their particular faith.

Which one is right?... If any...

Oh and animism and shamanism go back more than 10 thousand years...

There must be more points, but I can't remember more right now... those are enough

Now your present day miracles...
Miracles of treatments of misdiagnosed illnesses are just dumb. -..-'
I want proper miracles and no discrimination: all amputees get their limbs regrown overnight! That would be a proper miracle.

It's late. I don't have time to write more tonight.

Fair enough... we'll wait.

[BettyG]

Or none... Never forget that perfectly valid option.

However, only one of those options is true. How does not believing in God make you a happier and more virtuous person than the person of faith? If there is no God, there is no life after death. How does the thought that you and all the ones you love cease to exist when they die make you feel?

Thousands keep dying for other faiths... what makes their deaths any less (or more) valid than the deaths for your faith?

Something cannot be both true and at the same time false. A person's belief is either true or false.
1 Timothy 2:4 says. "God wills the salvation of all and to come to the knowledge of truth." Also, Hebrews 5:9 says that "he [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Thus, salvation comes only through faith in Jesus. Since an all merciful God did not create billions of people just to populate hell, there must a way of salvation for those who would have believed in Him and been baptized if they had been given the opportunity to learn and be convinced. (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 846-848 explains this in detail.) (Note: Protestants under the Calvanist influence do not believe what Scripture clearly says.)

And when I spoke about the origin of a particular religion, I didn't mean the creation myth of said religion. I meant where and when in the actual world that myth arose.

Yeah... prophets... see below, in mental problems. About his son, talk to Min... he's much more knowledgeable on where that myth came from than me.
It wouldn't keep us in the dark? Would it provides us with different lights so that we'd fight over who has the right light?
Would it keep us in the dark for some 20~30 thousand years?

St. Paul explains why God waited so long to send a savior. Galatians 4:4 says, "In the fullness of time, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law..." Mankind had to be prepared culturally and through trial and error to be open to belief in Jesus. There had to be adequate language and means of communication. There had to be roads and ocean navigation so that the message could be spread throughout the world. World travel on roads was made possible by the Roman Empire. If Jesus had come out to the blue with no warning or prophets, we would not have accepted Him as being from the Father.
God did not keep us in the dark. He inspired the prophets through His Holy Spirit to teach and write so that we would know how to be in relationship with Him. He provided a way for that truth to be passed on by establishing His church, the Catholic Church, which is the original Christian church.

awesome.... the gullible then manufacture their own miracles, based on their own lack of knowledge to explain perfectly natural phenomena... awesome self-perpetuating mechanism.

It seems you have a bias against supernatural events. Can you prove they are impossible just because you have not experienced one? It is a perfectly normal for people to die. That condition is pretty unmistakable. It is also normal for dead people to decay. So how do you explain the saints who are incorrupt though they have been dead for hundreds of years?
Also, how about the woman who was cured instantaneously from Parkinson's disease after asking Pope John Paul II's intercession after his death in 2005? Parkinson's disease is also unmistakable and incurable. Yet her miraculous healing from the disease was verified by non-Christian medical specialists as having no natural explanation.
Among the 151 incorrupt bodies I have mentioned above are:
St Agatha, Virgin and Martyr, Died: 251, Badia di Sant'Agata, Catania, Sicily. The body is now preserved in different reliquaries. "The arms, legs, and breasts are preserved in a glass case in an incorrupt condition, although rather dried and dark after more than 17 centuries.
Blessed Imelda Lambertini, (1322-1333) Her incorrupt body can be seen in the Church of San Sigismondo in Bologna, Italy.
Saint James of the March, died at Naples, Italy November 28, 1476, He was entombed in the Franciscan church at Naples, where his body can still be seen in a crystal coffin, incorrupt, flexible, and emitting a fragrant perfume.
St Angela Merici, died January 27, 1540, She reposes in a side chapel of the parish church of St. Afa in Brescia, Italy.
St Bernadette Soubirous, Born 1844, reliquary at motherhouse of the Sister of Nevers, in Nevers, France.
St. Don Orione. He lived from 1872-1940. Tomb at the Sancutary of the Madonna della Guardia in Tortona, Italy.
Pope Pius X, Death: Aug. 20, 1914, entombed at St. Peter's Basilica, Rome, Italy in a glass sarcophagus in the nave.

Do tell: what miracles have you experienced?

A friend of mine used to wear a hearing aid for many years because he was nearly deaf. After prayer, he no longer needed it. That was twenty years ago and his hearing is still fine without the hearing aids.
I had a friend who had lots of back pain. I saw him being examined when it was found that one of his legs was 1/4 inch shorter than the other which was the cause of his pain. During prayer with him to lengthen his leg, I SAW and FELT his leg grow 1/4 inch. That is not something that the Vatican would bother investigating because it is so common.
I have twice personally been relieved of sore throat pain when I prayed as I received Holy Communion. I prayed that since Jesus healed people by touching them, He could heal me as He went down my throat. This does not always work, but I know what a sore throat feels like and I know what not having any pain feels like. It is unmistakable.

No... you explain why it's possible. The burden of proof for those supernatural events is on the person claiming them, not on the person who doesn't buy it.
If magic is possible, then... I'll have some of that, please!

Contact the Vatican for proof. I do not have access to the records. My understanding about miracles is that God loves us and wants to reveal Himself in tangible ways to help us believe in Him. People of every age need that because we are humans.

It's funny how the muslims say exactly the same thing about their Allah.
And I'm willing to wager most, if not all, other adherents of any other faith will claim something like that about their particular faith.
Which one is right?... If any...

One has to use reason and logic to examine the credibility of a belief. Muslims have some beliefs that are not reasonable or logical. Such as: The Koran literally came down from heaven in book form, when we know the fact that Mohammed's followers wrote it after he was dead.
Christianity makes no such claim that humans did not use ink and parchments or papyrus to compose the Bible. Islam is a mixture of Jewish, Nestorian (heretical) Christianity and the moon god beliefs of his time and place.
Another Muslim belief is that Mohammed flew to Jerusalem over night from Saudia Arabia. In the 600's AD, there is no way he could have done that. This has to have been a fabricated story. Remember that he did not claim to be God.
Pope Benedict XVI caught a lot of flack about his Regensberg address (http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/papal-a...regensburg) for pointing out that faith has to not be based on only subjectivism. Faith must also have objective reasons for credibility. Catholicism has that objectiveness, while other Protestants (as I pointed out above), Fundamentalists and Islam do not.

Oh and animism and shamanism go back more than 10 thousand years...

It is probably more accurate to say that the Judeo-Christian beliefs go back to the beginning of recorded history. In Hebrew, Adam means "man" and Eve means "woman." Older is not necessarily better. Our understanding develops over time.

Miracles of treatments of misdiagnosed illnesses are just dumb. -..-'
I want proper miracles and no discrimination: all amputees get their limbs regrown overnight! That would be a proper miracle.

If God did miracles all the time, we would think they are normal instead of supernatural. God is not our puppet who answers every one of our demands. He leaves room for us to grow out of narcissism through not getting our way. If we chose not to believe the miracles He has already done, then how would more of them help us have faith? If you don't believe H rose from the dead, what more can He do to prove He is God? Nevertheless, I think God would show you a sign if you humbly asked for some small sign that He truly exists and that He loves you. God respects the difficulty we have in coming to faith. Then again, many will not believe even if He appeared right in front of them to show them He is real.

I've got a lot to do this weekend, so I won't be in the discussion or check this forum on Saturday.

[pocaracas]

Or none... Never forget that perfectly valid option.

However, only one of those options is true. How does not believing in God make you a happier and more virtuous person than the person of faith? If there is no God, there is no life after death. How does the thought that you and all the ones you love cease to exist when they die make you feel?

Care to explain how do my feelings influence such realities?

Thousands keep dying for other faiths... what makes their deaths any less (or more) valid than the deaths for your faith?

Something cannot be both true and at the same time false. A person's belief is either true or false.

People believe, I accept that.
If what they believe in correlates with reality or not... well... that doesn't seem to be important to someone who thinks feelings are more important than reality.

And when I spoke about the origin of a particular religion, I didn't mean the creation myth of said religion. I meant where and when in the actual world that myth arose.

Yeah... prophets... see below, in mental problems. About his son, talk to Min... he's much more knowledgeable on where that myth came from than me.
It wouldn't keep us in the dark? Would it provides us with different lights so that we'd fight over who has the right light?
Would it keep us in the dark for some 20~30 thousand years?

St. Paul explains why God waited so long to send a savior. Galatians 4:4 says, "In the fullness of time, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law..." Mankind had to be prepared culturally and through trial and error to be open to belief in Jesus. There had to be adequate language and means of communication. There had to be roads and ocean navigation so that the message could be spread throughout the world. World travel on roads was made possible by the Roman Empire. If Jesus had come out to the blue with no warning or prophets, we would not have accepted Him as being from the Father.
God did not keep us in the dark. He inspired the prophets through His Holy Spirit to teach and write so that we would know how to be in relationship with Him. He provided a way for that truth to be passed on by establishing His church, the Catholic Church, which is the original Christian church.

Roads and boats... that didn't reach America at the time... .India (which isn't that far away) is still under the impression that the Vedas (which pre-date Christ) are valid...
Come on... if god is so awesome as abrahamists claim, then he could just present itself to all, simultaneously, have a chat, share some of the awesome knowledge.... and come back.. say, at least, once a year.... The guy did appear directly to Abraham, did he not?

That would be unequivocal.... but instead... we got a crucified jew. Not impressed.

awesome.... the gullible then manufacture their own miracles, based on their own lack of knowledge to explain perfectly natural phenomena... awesome self-perpetuating mechanism.

It seems you have a bias against supernatural events. Can you prove they are impossible just because you have not experienced one?

Please, present proof that they are possible and not just in the minds of gullible people.

It is a perfectly normal for people to die. That condition is pretty unmistakable. It is also normal for dead people to decay. So how do you explain the saints who are incorrupt though they have been dead for hundreds of years?

Mummification... The ancient Egyptians did it... Why wouldn't some clerics do the same for people they thought were really important?

Also, how about the woman who was cured instantaneously from Parkinson's disease after asking Pope John Paul II's intercession after his death in 2005? Parkinson's disease is also unmistakable and incurable.
Yet her miraculous healing from the disease was verified by non-Christian medical specialists as having no natural explanation.

Misdiagnosis... somewhat common in psychological disorders...
How did they confirm that she did in fact have parkinson's?

---

Among the 151 incorrupt bodies I have mentioned above are:
St Agatha, Virgin and Martyr, Died: 251, Badia di Sant'Agata, Catania, Sicily. The body is now preserved in different reliquaries. "The arms, legs, and breasts are preserved in a glass case in an incorrupt condition, although rather dried and dark after more than 17 centuries.
Blessed Imelda Lambertini, (1322-1333) Her incorrupt body can be seen in the Church of San Sigismondo in Bologna, Italy.
Saint James of the March, died at Naples, Italy November 28, 1476, He was entombed in the Franciscan church at Naples, where his body can still be seen in a crystal coffin, incorrupt, flexible, and emitting a fragrant perfume.
St Angela Merici, died January 27, 1540, She reposes in a side chapel of the parish church of St. Afa in Brescia, Italy.
St Bernadette Soubirous, Born 1844, reliquary at motherhouse of the Sister of Nevers, in Nevers, France.
St. Don Orione. He lived from 1872-1940. Tomb at the Sancutary of the Madonna della Guardia in Tortona, Italy.
Pope Pius X, Death: Aug. 20, 1914, entombed at St. Peter's Basilica, Rome, Italy in a glass sarcophagus in the nave.

---

mummies... mummies everywhere!
Not all mummies become so by artificial means!

Do tell: what miracles have you experienced?

A friend of mine used to wear a hearing aid for many years because he was nearly deaf. After prayer, he no longer needed it. That was twenty years ago and his hearing is still fine without the hearing aids.

So... I guess this person never did a CAT scan to find out what was going on in that ear... -.-'

I had a friend who had lots of back pain. I saw him being examined when it was found that one of his legs was 1/4 inch shorter than the other which was the cause of his pain. During prayer with him to lengthen his leg, I SAW and FELT his leg grow 1/4 inch. That is not something that the Vatican would bother investigating because it is so common.

Not you nor anyone else noticed the guy had a shorter leg... and then you actually witness the leg lengthening by 1/4 inch?!...
You can't see that, you don't have the required precision.
And that's like 6 mm... you can correct that with a simple insole.

I have twice personally been relieved of sore throat pain when I prayed as I received Holy Communion. I prayed that since Jesus healed people by touching them, He could heal me as He went down my throat. This does not always work, but I know what a sore throat feels like and I know what not having any pain feels like. It is unmistakable.

And still this god thing lets millions die of starvation and easily treatable illnesses elsewhere... puhlease!

No... you explain why it's possible. The burden of proof for those supernatural events is on the person claiming them, not on the person who doesn't buy it.
If magic is possible, then... I'll have some of that, please!

Contact the Vatican for proof. I do not have access to the records. My understanding about miracles is that God loves us and wants to reveal Himself in tangible ways to help us believe in Him. People of every age need that because we are humans.

I've provided a few tangible ways by which this god of yours could reveal himself... instead... you give me misdiagnosis and ridicule healings.

It's funny how the muslims say exactly the same thing about their Allah.
And I'm willing to wager most, if not all, other adherents of any other faith will claim something like that about their particular faith.
Which one is right?... If any...

One has to use reason and logic to examine the credibility of a belief. Muslims have some beliefs that are not reasonable or logical. Such as: The Koran literally came down from heaven in book form, when we know the fact that Mohammed's followers wrote it after he was dead.
Christianity makes no such claim that humans did not use ink and parchments or papyrus to compose the Bible. Islam is a mixture of Jewish, Nestorian (heretical) Christianity and the moon god beliefs of his time and place.
Another Muslim belief is that Mohammed flew to Jerusalem over night from Saudia Arabia. In the 600's AD, there is no way he could have done that. This has to have been a fabricated story. Remember that he did not claim to be God.

You better contact the nearest muslim and tell him that! You have two usuals around this forum: rayan and Muslim Sholar.... enjoy telling them about their contradictions... while they tell you about yours.

In the meantime.... I'll be laughing at both.

Pope Benedict XVI caught a lot of flack about his Regensberg address (http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/papal-a...regensburg) for pointing out that faith has to not be based on only subjectivism. Faith must also have objective reasons for credibility. Catholicism has that objectiveness, while other Protestants (as I pointed out above), Fundamentalists and Islam do not.

Oh.... add a few fundamentalists, like the creationists... go for Statler Waldorf for that.

Oh and animism and shamanism go back more than 10 thousand years...

It is probably more accurate to say that the Judeo-Christian beliefs go back to the beginning of recorded history. In Hebrew, Adam means "man" and Eve means "woman." Older is not necessarily better. Our understanding develops over time.

What does that say of my understanding of all gods?... too developed?

Miracles of treatments of misdiagnosed illnesses are just dumb. -..-'
I want proper miracles and no discrimination: all amputees get their limbs regrown overnight! That would be a proper miracle.

If God did miracles all the time, we would think they are normal instead of supernatural. God is not our puppet who answers every one of our demands. He leaves room for us to grow out of narcissism through not getting our way. If we chose not to believe the miracles He has already done, then how would more of them help us have faith?

Miracles claimed to have happened does not equal to events that actually happened... also: misdiagnosis!

If you don't believe H rose from the dead, what more can He do to prove He is God?

Did he now? And you know this because?....

Nevertheless, I think God would show you a sign if you humbly asked for some small sign that He truly exists and that He loves you. God respects the difficulty we have in coming to faith. Then again, many will not believe even if He appeared right in front of them to show them He is real.

In short, the same thing as Drich.... Luke whatever.... A/S/K, mustard's seed worth of faith... and you'll get it.
Sorry, I do not accept self-brainwashing as a reliable method to determine reality.

[BettyG]

Care to explain how do my feelings influence such realities?

I thought such discomforting thoughts would made you open to considering other possibilities.

People believe, I accept that.
If what they believe in correlates with reality or not... well... that doesn't seem to be important to someone who thinks feelings are more important than reality.

Actually, I have been trying to use rational arguments for credibility of belief. True or false is not a matter of opinion. If someone thinks two plus two is five, they are wrong, no matter how sure they are that they are right.. In the end, We will find out beyond all doubt after we die. It will no longer be a matter of faith.

Roads and boats... that didn't reach America at the time... .India (which isn't that far away) is still under the impression that the Vedas (which pre-date Christ) are valid...
Come on... if god is so awesome as abrahamists claim, then he could just present itself to all, simultaneously, have a chat, share some of the awesome knowledge.... and come back.. say, at least, once a year.... The guy did appear directly to Abraham, did he not?

That would be unequivocal.... but instead... we got a crucified jew. Not impressed.

I was explaining why Jesus did not come before when He did. It was the earliest. Why didn’t He come later? That is a good question. The Bible does not explain that, so I will not speculate.

I suppose God could appear every year to help the skeptics believe in Him. I will not speculate why He chooses not to do so. Since He does not, I guess one has to look at the over 300 verses in the Bible that foretold the details of His comin gin the flesh, the miracles He did, like rising from the dead, and eye witnesses. I have thought and investigated all these, and find them very credible. I find God through prayer and by receiving Holy Communion.

Please, present proof that they are possible and not just in the minds of gullible people.

The reason I listed the incorruptibles and where they are entombed is that you can go see them yourself. Otherwise, look at these photos: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/im...+of+saints

Mummification... The ancient Egyptians did it... Why wouldn't some clerics do the same for people they thought were really important?

http://www.funerals.org/frequently-asked...-embalming
· Embalming does not preserve the human body forever; it merely delays the inevitable and natural consequences of death. There is some variation in the rate of decomposition, depending on the strength of the chemicals and methods used, and the humidity and temperature of the final resting place.
· Ambient temperature has more affect on the decomposition process than the time elapsed after death, whether or not a body has been embalmed. In a sealed casket in above-ground entombment in a warm climate, a body will decompose very rapidly.

Most of these people have been dead for hundreds of years. Most do do not look like Egyptian mummies.
Have you seen someone who has been dead several hours? I have when I worked in a hospital. The ones I saw have a slight yellow tinge on their skin. Some of the incorruptibles have pink skin and their bodies are flexible. Besides, embalming did not become a common practice until the mid-1800’s.

Misdiagnosis... somewhat common in psychological disorders...
How did they confirm that she did in fact have parkinson's?

Why are you saying anyone who disagrees with you is crazy? Sounds like a broken record. Ad hominem attacks do not impress me.
A French nun's recovery from Parkinson's disease was the miracle needed for Pope John Paul to be beatified. Parkinson's disease is a progressively degenerative neurological disorder which affects the control of body movements. After four years of suffering from Parkinson’s disease, Sister Marie Simon-Pierre was completely cured some two months after the Pope passed away.
“After praying to [id est, asking for his intercession] John Paul II, the nun [Sister Marie Simon-Pierre] said, she awoke one morning, to the shock of her doctor, feeling reborn and capable of performing previously difficult tasks, such as walking and writing. “I was sick, and now I am cured,” Simon-Pierre said at a March 30, 2007, press conference in Aix-en-Provence, France. “I am cured, but it is up to the church to say whether it was a miracle or not.”
I suppose you could research her address and write her a letter. Here is a link to a video interview with her. http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play...crmas&tt=b

mummies... mummies everywhere!
Not all mummies become so by artificial means!

No one tried to preserve their bodies. For example, people like Lenin got injections of “refresher” embalming fluid. He was kept in a specially designed tomb. That was fraud. The Vatican has no reason to fake it. No one expects bodies to do anything but decay. Why would anyone risk their credibility on that? There are many ways they have damaged their credibility before without that.

So... I guess this person never did a CAT scan to find out what was going on in that ear... -.-'

People do not spend thousands of dollars on hearing aids unless they have a serious hearing problem. I saw him with hearing aids and I talk to him several times after he no longer needed them. I suppose you are going to say he is crazy too?

Not you nor anyone else noticed the guy had a shorter leg... and then you actually witness the leg lengthening by 1/4 inch?!...
You can't see that, you don't have the required precision.
And that's like 6 mm... you can correct that with a simple insole.

I know what I saw and felt. You weren’t there, so how can you know?

And still this god thing lets millions die of starvation and easily treatable illnesses elsewhere... puhlease!

God has His reasons for allowing suffering. Read John Paul II’s Salvifici Doloris for more information.

I've provided a few tangible ways by which this god of yours could reveal himself... instead... you give me misdiagnosis and ridicule healings.

God is not your puppet. A little humility is needed here.

[quote]You better contact the nearest muslim and tell him that! You have two usuals around this forum: rayan and Muslim Sholar.... enjoy telling them about their contradictions... while they tell you about yours.

In the meantime.... I'll be laughing at both.

I suppose I should be more careful about what I say about Muslims. We all know Islam is a religion of peace. I do not like the thought of one blowing me up or the CIA/FBI investigating me either.

Oh.... add a few fundamentalists, like the creationists... go for Statler Waldorf for that.

Let the chips fall where they may.

What does that say of my understanding of all gods?... too developed?

“Develop” does not mean fabricated and totally disconnected from what was before.

Miracles claimed to have happened does not equal to events that actually happened... also: misdiagnosis!

Your wild assumption again.

Did he now? And you know this because?....

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 St. Paul said, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.”

He wrote this within a decade of two of the Resurrection.

In short, the same thing as Drich.... Luke whatever.... A/S/K, mustard's seed worth of faith... and you'll get it.
Sorry, I do not accept self-brainwashing as a reliable method to determine reality.

Suit yourself. I was just trying to be helpful.

I'm out of here for a few days. Have a nice weekend!

[pocaracas]

Care to explain how do my feelings influence such realities?

I thought such discomforting thoughts would made you open to considering other possibilities.

I don't fall for cheap tricks... sorry.

People believe, I accept that.
If what they believe in correlates with reality or not... well... that doesn't seem to be important to someone who thinks feelings are more important than reality.

Actually, I have been trying to use rational arguments for credibility of belief. True or false is not a matter of opinion. If someone thinks two plus two is five, they are wrong, no matter how sure they are that they are right.. In the end, We will find out beyond all doubt after we die. It will no longer be a matter of faith.

Actually, if someone thinks 2+2 = 5, then that is true... for that person.
If someone thinks allah is real, then that is true... for that person.
If someone thinks Jesus rose from the dead, then that is true... for that person.
Shall I go on?

Regardless of the perceived truthfulness in each individual, reality may very well not agree with it... As we can see in the case of 2+2.

Roads and boats... that didn't reach America at the time... .India (which isn't that far away) is still under the impression that the Vedas (which pre-date Christ) are valid...
Come on... if god is so awesome as abrahamists claim, then he could just present itself to all, simultaneously, have a chat, share some of the awesome knowledge.... and come back.. say, at least, once a year.... The guy did appear directly to Abraham, did he not?

That would be unequivocal.... but instead... we got a crucified jew. Not impressed.

I was explaining why Jesus did not come before when He did. It was the earliest. Why didn’t He come later? That is a good question. The Bible does not explain that, so I will not speculate.

I suppose God could appear every year to help the skeptics believe in Him. I will not speculate why He chooses not to do so. Since He does not, I guess one has to look at the over 300 verses in the Bible that foretold the details of His comin gin the flesh, the miracles He did, like rising from the dead, and eye witnesses. I have thought and investigated all these, and find them very credible. I find God through prayer and by receiving Holy Communion.

You were... and are... being apologetic.
And you accept what is written on the bible as true... remember the possible lack of correlation between truth and reality?

Please, present proof that they are possible and not just in the minds of gullible people.

The reason I listed the incorruptibles and where they are entombed is that you can go see them yourself. Otherwise, look at these photos: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/im...+of+saints

Some of those look like wax..... others do look like mummies.
The few that have their hand holding up are so waxlike.... -.-'
People see what they want to see... and some people provide what others want to see....
Yes, I'm calling those who set up those bodies deceivers.

Mummification... The ancient Egyptians did it... Why wouldn't some clerics do the same for people they thought were really important?

http://www.funerals.org/frequently-asked...-embalming
· Embalming does not preserve the human body forever; it merely delays the inevitable and natural consequences of death. There is some variation in the rate of decomposition, depending on the strength of the chemicals and methods used, and the humidity and temperature of the final resting place.
· Ambient temperature has more affect on the decomposition process than the time elapsed after death, whether or not a body has been embalmed. In a sealed casket in above-ground entombment in a warm climate, a body will decompose very rapidly.

Most of these people have been dead for hundreds of years. Most do do not look like Egyptian mummies.
Have you seen someone who has been dead several hours? I have when I worked in a hospital. The ones I saw have a slight yellow tinge on their skin. Some of the incorruptibles have pink skin and their bodies are flexible. Besides, embalming did not become a common practice until the mid-1800’s.

And that is why some of those do look like actual mummies...

Misdiagnosis... somewhat common in psychological disorders...
How did they confirm that she did in fact have parkinson's?

Why are you saying anyone who disagrees with you is crazy? Sounds like a broken record. Ad hominem attacks do not impress me.

I was under the impression that an ad hominem attack was one that attacked the person with whom I was talking.... or you. Am I attacking you?
Anyway, tons of people have parkinson's, tons pray to get well... one does get well... I call this a misdiagnosis of that one.
I'm not calling anyone crazy...

A French nun's recovery from Parkinson's disease was the miracle needed for Pope John Paul to be beatified.

Quite convenient, no?

Parkinson's disease is a progressively degenerative neurological disorder which affects the control of body movements. After four years of suffering from Parkinson’s disease, Sister Marie Simon-Pierre was completely cured some two months after the Pope passed away.
“After praying to [id est, asking for his intercession] John Paul II, the nun [Sister Marie Simon-Pierre] said, she awoke one morning, to the shock of her doctor, feeling reborn and capable of performing previously difficult tasks, such as walking and writing. “I was sick, and now I am cured,” Simon-Pierre said at a March 30, 2007, press conference in Aix-en-Provence, France. “I am cured, but it is up to the church to say whether it was a miracle or not.”
I suppose you could research her address and write her a letter. Here is a link to a video interview with her. http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play...crmas&tt=b

It is possible that she had some other problem that manifested in much the same way as parkinson's.... Then something happened and what was causing that problem went away...
Or if she really had parkinson's, she should be thoroughly studied for she may hold the key to curing other parkinson's patients.
Instead... it's a miracle... -.-'

mummies... mummies everywhere!
Not all mummies become so by artificial means!

No one tried to preserve their bodies.
For example, people like Lenin got injections of “refresher” embalming fluid. He was kept in a specially designed tomb. That was fraud. The Vatican has no reason to fake it.

yeah, sure...
Gullibility is a trait they seek in people. Congratz, you qualify!

No one expects bodies to do anything but decay. Why would anyone risk their credibility on that? There are many ways they have damaged their credibility before without that.

What's one more dummy blow to a long standing tradition of fooling people?

So... I guess this person never did a CAT scan to find out what was going on in that ear... -.-'

People do not spend thousands of dollars on hearing aids unless they have a serious hearing problem. I saw him with hearing aids and I talk to him several times after he no longer needed them. I suppose you are going to say he is crazy too?

Yes, he had a serious hearing problem... couldn't hear very well, hence a hearing aid. Did he get a CAT scan? Did he go through all the shenanigans?
A simple inflammation that prevents the ear's bones from vibrating properly could cause the hearing loss.... chronic inflammation in the ear is not unheard of.... then, one day, he takes some anti-biotic for some other problem and it fixes that inflammation as well... bang, miracle!
I'm not saying this is what happened, I never met the guy.... but it is one possibility.

I'm saying the hearing problem could have been caused by something else that got well for some reason.... once you watch enough Dr House episodes, these occurrences become the norm!

Not you nor anyone else noticed the guy had a shorter leg... and then you actually witness the leg lengthening by 1/4 inch?!...
You can't see that, you don't have the required precision.
And that's like 6 mm... you can correct that with a simple insole.

I know what I saw and felt. You weren’t there, so how can you know?

You saw what you wanted to see. That much is clear.

And still this god thing lets millions die of starvation and easily treatable illnesses elsewhere... puhlease!

God has His reasons for allowing suffering. Read John Paul II’s Salvifici Doloris for more information.

And how would this John Paul II know about it? does he have a hotline to the ever after?
Gullible people will be gullible.

I've provided a few tangible ways by which this god of yours could reveal himself... instead... you give me misdiagnosis and ridicule healings.

God is not your puppet. A little humility is needed here.

and a lot of gullibility.

You better contact the nearest muslim and tell him that! You have two usuals around this forum: rayan and Muslim Sholar.... enjoy telling them about their contradictions... while they tell you about yours.

In the meantime.... I'll be laughing at both.

I suppose I should be more careful about what I say about Muslims. We all know Islam is a religion of peace. I do not like the thought of one blowing me up or the CIA/FBI investigating me either.

I wouldn't worry about blowing up of getting checked out over some discussion on an internet forum...
I'd be in serious trouble, then!

Did he now? And you know this because?....

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 St. Paul said, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.”

He wrote this within a decade of two of the Resurrection.

J.K.Rowling wrote about Harry Potter right after each school year that he had.
And your point is?

In short, the same thing as Drich.... Luke whatever.... A/S/K, mustard's seed worth of faith... and you'll get it.
Sorry, I do not accept self-brainwashing as a reliable method to determine reality.

Suit yourself. I was just trying to be helpful.

Helpful?
You were trying to get me to accept your perception of the realm of the dead.
I didn't buy it. Let's agree to disagree and shake on it.

I'm out of here for a few days. Have a nice weekend!

You too... We're having a holiday on Monday, so I get one extra resting day!

[Zen Badger]

I had a friend who had lots of back pain. I saw him being examined when it was found that one of his legs was 1/4 inch shorter than the other which was the cause of his pain. During prayer with him to lengthen his leg, I SAW and FELT his leg grow 1/4 inch. That is not something that the Vatican would bother investigating because it is so common.

Evidence or I'm calling you a damned liar.

[Esquilax]

I thought such discomforting thoughts would made you open to considering other possibilities.

Aw, come on! Is that the way you want to conduct your religious conversations? "It's not that it's true that makes it attractive, but that it's comforting!"

Appeals to emotion are the realm of hucksters and snake oil salesmen. If your claim is true then emotion isn't needed to convince people to be open about it.

People do not spend thousands of dollars on hearing aids unless they have a serious hearing problem. I saw him with hearing aids and I talk to him several times after he no longer needed them. I suppose you are going to say he is crazy too?

You know there's such a thing as temporary hearing loss and misdiagnosis, right?

I know what I saw and felt. You weren’t there, so how can you know?

You don't want to be using "were you there?' for things. I mean, you weren't physically present around a god when it decided to help, so by your own logic you have no grounds to claim a miracle.

God has His reasons for allowing suffering. Read John Paul II’s Salvifici Doloris for more information.

I submit to you that no reason could possibly be good enough, for a person in god's shoes.

Your wild assumption again.

And your claim that a divine being exercised space magic to suspend the laws of physical reality isn't a wild assumption?!

[BettyG]

pocaracas, Zen Badger, and Esquilax
I suppose I could continue to propose one miracle after another to prove there are exceptions to your rule that miracles are impossible, and then you would shoot them all down. That would be an exercise in futility.

I want to get to the heart of the matter -- anti-supernaturalism. This topic has wandered away from this thread, so I started another thread: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism.

[KichigaiNeko]

You'll just get the same treatment BG......