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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 2, 2013 at 11:31 pm
(This post was last modified: June 2, 2013 at 11:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 2, 2013 at 11:28 pm)Consilius Wrote: You haven't contradicted me. I don't worship a God of "let it slide". Was God supposed to FORGET about the wrongdoings of humanity? That would be the definition of injustice.
Christ's sacrifice is scapegoating, yes. Scapegoating of himself. Or do you feel sorry for Jesus because he gave himself up for the rest of us? Not to mention that Jesus is also God.
Nobody killed anybody with the purpose of absolving sins: not the Jews, not the Romans, and not God the Father.
Christ's death was a sacrifice he approved of and executed himself. I'd feel compassion and remorse for the scapegoated- sure, but I'd also feel disgust at those who would accept scapegoating as a suitable way to handle what I can only imagine they feel to be some issue of moral responsibility.
In what other capacity do you feel that scapegoating is suitable. You keep referencing the approval of the scapegoated - so howsabout we let mothers take the needle for their murderous sons? Sound like justice, or moral responsibility to you?
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 2, 2013 at 11:34 pm
(This post was last modified: June 2, 2013 at 11:42 pm by catfish.)
(June 2, 2013 at 11:28 pm)Consilius Wrote: You haven't contradicted me. I don't worship a God of "let it slide". Was God supposed to FORGET about the wrongdoings of humanity? That would be the definition of injustice.
Christ's sacrifice is scapegoating, yes. Scapegoating of himself. Or do you feel sorry for Jesus because he gave himself up for the rest of us? Not to mention that Jesus is also God.
Nobody killed anybody with the purpose of absolving sins: not the Jews, not the Romans, and not God the Father.
Christ's death was a sacrifice he approved of and executed himself.
But that goes against what Jesus taught. What's better than any sacrifice? If Jesus was God, how could a human do greater things than he? If Jesus was God, why did he deny being "good"?
Come to think about it, the whole "Jesus Saves" slogan goes against his (Jesus') name...
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(June 2, 2013 at 11:29 pm)smax Wrote: Nah, just an occasional thorn, reminding you how twisted and inconsistent your logic is.
Ill get bored soon. In other words, yes...
(about your sig pic...)
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 3, 2013 at 12:44 am
(June 2, 2013 at 11:28 pm)Consilius Wrote: You haven't contradicted me. I don't worship a God of "let it slide". Was God supposed to FORGET about the wrongdoings of humanity? That would be the definition of injustice.
Christ's sacrifice is scapegoating, yes. Scapegoating of himself. Or do you feel sorry for Jesus because he gave himself up for the rest of us? Not to mention that Jesus is also God.
Nobody killed anybody with the purpose of absolving sins: not the Jews, not the Romans, and not God the Father.
Christ's death was a sacrifice he approved of and executed himself.
But you do worship a god of "let it slide"
A man can be a complete prick all his life, raping, stealing and murdering.
And yet at the end of it all he has to do is ask for forgiveness and god gives it to him.
Bam! He's in heaven.
So where is the punishment for that persons sins?
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 3, 2013 at 12:58 am
I am a Catholic and believe in Purgatory.
When people willing to be with God die with sins that haven't been made up, they go to Purgatory. Heaven is pure and people who die with sins can't get in yet.
There, they experience a period of suffering for the wrong they have done and then go into heaven.
I believe Heaven and Hell are far too extreme states for complex people.
So God's mercy and justice come into balance through Purgatory.
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 3, 2013 at 1:05 am
The "god" is eternal - has no beginning and no end - in Xtianity
So - the god CANNOT DIE - that is just one of the MAJOR conflicts in the XTIAN nonsense.
The claim that the god became man is nonsense - just as much as the idea that the god can actually exist - which it cannot as described. There are too many conflicting attributes to exist
In fact - the "god" (THere is only one god in xtianity) did not actually become man - even in their fairy tales - only the "son" part became man.
If the ONE god actually became man - and died - there would be no power to raise him from the dead - man does not possess that power. THAT alone prevents the claim that the god became man.
Of course - why would a god NEED to die to begin with - there was NO reason. IF - as the bible claims - we are only responsible for our OWN sins - and NOT those of our fathers or others - then the only "person" who needed saving from original sin was the EVE myth - whose story IS proven to be a fairy tale now.
As far as the "son" part becoming man - that story has TOO many holes in it to be true. THE stories include things like miracles - things BEYOND the ability of a real human. THey also include things like a virgin birth - which of course does not actually happen in humans as well. And of course - the christ myth also cannot fulfill the prophecies for the mesiah that are right in the bible. THe claim of a new covenant - means that the word of god cannot be trusted - he will not fulfill his word - which is a major problem for the jews - since they believe that their god's word is good for all eternity.
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 3, 2013 at 1:33 am
I think a few misconceptions need to be cleared up.
(June 3, 2013 at 1:05 am)ThomM Wrote: The "god" is eternal - has no beginning and no end - in Xtianity
So - the god CANNOT DIE - that is just one of the MAJOR conflicts in the XTIAN nonsense. Jesus was fully god and fully man at the same time. Confusing, I know. People have been at this for years.
Quote:The claim that the god became man is nonsense - just as much as the idea that the god can actually exist - which it cannot as described. There are too many conflicting attributes to exist
Such as…man is sinful and man can die? Jesus, when becoming a man, became able to experience death. Man is sinful because of what he does. Jesus, not only being man but also God and under the direction of God, was kept free from sin so he could keep himself a pure sacrifice on the cross.
Quote:In fact - the "god" (THere is only one god in xtianity) did not actually become man - even in their fairy tales - only the "son" part became man.
God and Jesus are two aspects of the same person.
Quote:If the ONE god actually became man - and died - there would be no power to raise him from the dead - man does not possess that power. THAT alone prevents the claim that the god became man.
Jesus, as a man, died. This man was also God. God cannot die. But God fully resurrected Jesus in his human form.
Quote:Of course - why would a god NEED to die to begin with - there was NO reason. IF - as the bible claims - we are only responsible for our OWN sins - and NOT those of our fathers or others - then the only "person" who needed saving from original sin was the EVE myth - whose story IS proven to be a fairy tale now.
That people need to take care of their own sins is the law that God dictates. But, humanity still not having paid for its sins, God decided to get rid of our sins for us. By himself.
Quote:As far as the "son" part becoming man - that story has TOO many holes in it to be true. THE stories include things like miracles - things BEYOND the ability of a real human. THey also include things like a virgin birth - which of course does not actually happen in humans as well.
This normal human was God at the same time. God made Jesus' miracles possible in a human being.
Quote:And of course - the christ myth also cannot fulfill the prophecies for the mesiah that are right in the bible. THe claim of a new covenant - means that the word of god cannot be trusted - he will not fulfill his word - which is a major problem for the jews - since they believe that their god's word is good for all eternity.
Jesus did fulfill the Old Testament prophecies—the problem is that they were taken with human interpretations, which Jesus could not fulfill, because these interpretations were not correct. Jesus still is a king, prophet, servant, and savior, just not in the way people expected him to be.
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 3, 2013 at 4:55 am
(June 3, 2013 at 12:58 am)Consilius Wrote: I am a Catholic and believe in Purgatory.
When people willing to be with God die with sins that haven't been made up, they go to Purgatory. Heaven is pure and people who die with sins can't get in yet.
There, they experience a period of suffering for the wrong they have done and then go into heaven.
I believe Heaven and Hell are far too extreme states for complex people.
So God's mercy and justice come into balance through Purgatory.
So where does purgatory get a mention in the bible?
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 3, 2013 at 3:10 pm
“Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:26
"If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:14-15
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 4, 2013 at 7:49 am
(June 3, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Consilius Wrote: “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:26
"If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:14-15
And you think they are references to purgatory.
I think you're wrong.
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RE: Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
June 4, 2013 at 1:42 pm
We have Jesus stating that God cannot let sins go.
St. Paul also talks about poor deeds on Earth (buildings) not withstanding Judgement (fire), and the doer of these deeds (the builder) still being saved, even though he had to get through flames (suffering) first.
"Nothing unclean, or anyone who does anything detestable, and no one who tells lies will ever enter [the Holy City]" Revelation 21:27
Every sin is accounted for and is incompatible with Heaven.
Also, in the Catholic Bible:
"Therefore [Judas MAccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." 2 Maccabees 12:46
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