Attn: Christians, We've Heard Them Already

[Faith No More]

Honestly? I accept your disbelief now!

Honestly. Although, I'm sure many Christians would argue I was doing it wrongly.

And...all you really have to do is ask in earnest for an answer. that's all God needs to reveal Himself.

Then can anyone that asks earnestly and receives no answer conclude that your god doesn't exist?

[Mystical]

Ok! But, you make Faith sound like a void. Like something is absent.

So you say tomotoes and I say tomatoes?

No he says tomatoes you say unicorn

[Anomalocaris]

Having a personal relationship with God is like a kid having a personal relationship with Santa Clause.

For you.....I won't try to convince you otherwise!

I was once in your shoes...eh....metaphorically that is! Just my life experiences made me give it a try! It worked out I'm happy to say!

I am not sure if an adult who successfully derives happiness from a belief in Santa clause can conceivably be qualified to say anything whatsoever that might be worthy, in the most minute way,of being listening to on this subject or any other subject.

[Cyberman]

I apologise, I'm using my 'phone right now so my responses are going to be a bit limited. Just want to pick up a couple of points.

Well, let me first say: that people here slip in and out of metaphors like silk underwear, and use them accordingly in arguments. So, I will in the future abstain from using them, except in extreme lack of understandings.

Actually what you were using was more of an analogy, which by its nature has to be analogous to whatever your point is (tautological as that may be). While no analogy is perfect, ideally they should at least make sense. Maybe you should indeed refrain from employing them if they can be turned against you with such little effort.

None of this addresses the fundamental flaw of conflating the existent with the undemonstrable.

I can completely understand your point. The big problem is that every atheist has a different opinion. And when I address one, another hits me like a ton of bricks!

Scary, isn't it? You'll never know where the next brick is coming from!

Yes, our religion is faith based. Also, being based in scripture and revelations from the Holy Spirit!

Then the faith is unnecessary, since you have evidence you can examine (albeit spectral). But we're back on the Magic Roundabout; until we can know there even is a "Holy Spirit", I submit that your religion is based on nothing. As The Hitch said, anything which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Here's something for you to chew on. Assuming for the moment it exists, how do you know this Holy Spirit isn't lying to you?

How, pray-tell can someone comment on the Holy Spirit unless they aspire to, or experienced Him?

Very easily, as it happens. You and I both did it.

It's really hard to describe the benefits of Faith. And believe me, I would love to share the experiences that I personally have had. But I've tried. No one cares. Everyone finds a way to debunk them. These "miracles" are too important, and precious to me to make light of.

Maybe these "miracles" aren't quite as miraculous as they seemed, if they can be "debunked" (read: explained) so readily? Just sayin'.

So, we are at a stalemate. You need proof. But to get your proof you need to actually believe first.

Actually I'd settle for evidence. Got any?

However, the stalemate is actually an illusion, born out of the inability to demonstrate even the existence of evidence. I can wait.

The Problem Of Evil doesn't help the theists' case, certainly. However it's not the primary reason for me, at least, not to like this god of yours. It's that the character as written is clearly dangerously insane. Not exactly what you want in an infinitely powerful being, really.

I agree! But...He is eerily similar to us! At least in the "absolute power" realm. eh?

And what does that tell you? Simplest case scenario?

And this is different from "might makes right" how, exactly?

Well....again...I dunno? I don't really think about the OT! I like Psalms and Wisdom...and a few of the prophets....but its ancient history to me. The Gospel of Jesus is where I'm at. And Jesus says "His word and scrafice" is whats important. You won't find me defending much in the OT.

Hey, it's your book. If bits of it cause you problems, throw them out. It's not like it's holy writ or anything - more like atrociously writ, actually.

Thanks for your responses Stmbo! Ron

Thanks for responding to my responses! This is fun!

[Mystical]

How pray tell is someone expected to comment on the holy spirit is what I'm wondering. Even as a Christian I thought you guys sounded retarded talking tongues. You know what will put a chill up your spine? A full room of people claiming they feel something supernatural flowing through your bodies, filling the room you're in with its' invisibleness who knows every single thought you've ever made, is judging you for your intentions, thoughts, and actions, and is determining your eternal destination based on your own ability to fight or intercede for every shortcoming in your life. Oh and then don't forget the demons, damn demons get all up in your shit if you've got weakness in your faith of that invisible being. Not to mention angels that follow you around 24/7. Its like 1984 without the cameras; you are your own surveillance.

I'm not saying don't believe, btw. Believe what you want! But, if you knock on my door telling me I've made the wrong decision with consequence of hell: I'ma tell you you're an idiot straight up.

[ronedee]

I am not sure if an adult who successfully derives happiness from a belief in Santa clause can conceivably be qualified to say anything whatsoever that might be worthy, in the most minute way,of being listening to on this subject or any other subject.

Ok.... I'll just sit here and drool on myself....writing my letters to Santee Claus!

[Cato]

Ok.... I'll just sit here and drool on myself....writing my letters to Santee Claus!

Thank fucking God. Before you said this I had the mental image of you shoving a rosary up your ass.

[ronedee]

Actually what you were using was more of an analogy, which by its nature has to be analogous to whatever your point is (tautological as that may be). While no analogy is perfect, ideally they should at least make sense. Maybe you should indeed refrain from employing them if they can be turned against you with such little effort.

Well stim... I wasn't actually talking about me specifically. But I'll try to be more clever!

None of this addresses the fundamental flaw of conflating the existent with the undemonstrable.

"indemonstrable"? I always hated that word cuz of the "demon" thingy! But yeah...no evidence!

Scary, isn't it? You'll never know where the next brick is coming from!

...and when your backs turned too!

Then the faith is unnecessary, since you have evidence you can examine (albeit spectral). But we're back on the Magic Roundabout; until we can know there even is a "Holy Spirit", I submit that your religion is based on nothing. As The Hitch said, anything which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Here's something for you to chew on. Assuming for the moment it exists, how do you know this Holy Spirit isn't lying to you?

Well, I present my own life as proof of the Holy Spirit! He's working much GOOD in me!

So whats bad about that? What more evidence do I need? Are you going to tell me it is: Luck? Coincidence? Evil?

I think it's up to you to prove my spiritual experiences and miracles are something other than what I deem it to be.

How, pray-tell can someone comment on the Holy Spirit unless they aspire to, or experienced Him?

Very easily, as it happens. You and I both did it.

We "commented"...but did you "experience" Him? If you did you are on your way.....hallelujah brother!

Maybe these "miracles" aren't quite as miraculous as they seemed, if they can be "debunked" (read: explained) so readily? Just sayin'.

They "try" to debunk them! No. These miracles are MIRACLES.

Actually I'd settle for evidence. Got any?

However, the stalemate is actually an illusion, born out of the inability to demonstrate even the existence of evidence. I can wait.

I wish I did....then we could go have some manna, and a few laffs together!

Hey, it's your book. If bits of it cause you problems, throw them out. It's not like it's holy writ or anything - more like atrociously writ, actually.

It's a package deal... Like me! The good, the bad.... and the not so ugly!

Thanks for responding to my responses! This is fun!

Ditto bro!

[Polaris]

Actually Stalin was an atheist....just because someone is born into a religious family, does that preclude them from becoming an atheist. Hitler can be argued either way....he was more into the supernatural than a belief in a god or gods.

[Minimalist]

Ok! But, you make Faith sound like a void. Like something is absent.

Having a personal relationship with God is like a kid having a personal relationship with Santa Clause.

Not to mention that it is a decidedly one-sided relationship.