Ok.....So you killed off Religion...

[Ryantology]

So like I stated earlier after God was kicked out of our schools things have gotten worse. The legacy of the atheist "we beat God at school, look at the high price the kids have paid."

I'm sure this has everything to do with the removal of God and nothing to do with guns and ammo being dangerously easy for children to acquire in this country. The fact that countries with strict gun ownership laws have removed more of God than we have (or never had God in the first place) and have not seen any significant increase in school shootings is coincidence, right?

But, whatever. Your God is letting kids die because of something they had no control over. The six year olds in Connecticut are not to blame for God being removed from schools. So, like you stated earlier, your god is a fucking cunt.

[Godscreated]

That's the only thing you have to say when kids are dying at the hands of kids, you need a heart.

nicely dodged. You really are a pro at avoiding legitimate responses. Perhaps instead of attacking him for a perfectly legitimate comparison, you should address the logical fallacies in your own assertions. Just sayin'.

I did not dodge anything a stupid statement deserves such an answer. Besides that what I said is true. As for your description of the verses what's the age limit on them.

[Baalzebutt]

nicely dodged. You really are a pro at avoiding legitimate responses. Perhaps instead of attacking him for a perfectly legitimate comparison, you should address the logical fallacies in your own assertions. Just sayin'.

I did not dodge anything a stupid statement deserves such an answer. Besides that what I said is true. As for your description of the verses what's the age limit on them.

I didn't see an age limit noted. From my perspective, my children are my children whether they are 4 or 40. Maybe you feel different about your children...

[ronedee]

To a place where everyone is equal and has a right to speak up against the system. That's true freedom for you, not some heavenly dictatorship which strangely never represents itself in person, but instead has spoken through the actions of the greedy ones in power. News flash; you're being manipulated.


Sometimes, I get the feeling that the worst citizen would be the newly deconverted. Sounds to me like the only thing holding you back from breaking loose and unleashing hell for yourself and your surroundings is your religious shackles you've willingly bonded to yourself for w/e reasons. I'm genuinely scared for people such as yourself who have this delusion of an atheistic ammoral world. Do yourself a favour and open your eyes. You make it out to be some sort of post-apocalyptic free-for-all where altruism went extinct. It's an outright insult.

For someone who has no faith in God...you have plenty for your fellow man.

And I don't know how you can pick all this crap out of my question...but you must know something about me that I don't know!

---

Well, as much as we all like to think of ourselves as "different" and "unique", we ARE the masses. We act like the majority of society. Besides, we aren't talking about me specifically, we are talking about the world.

I believe that general behavior would not change much if at all. There is evidence of this by looking at atheist cultures like many European countries.

God doesn't guide societies. Societies guide god.

But, all GOOD was based on what was instituted by God! Or in certain cultures, some deity of higher morals than their own.

You can't claim morality as a humanly instituted trait! No matter how far you get from God...morality brings you right back at Him!

[Godscreated]

I did not dodge anything a stupid statement deserves such an answer. Besides that what I said is true. As for your description of the verses what's the age limit on them.

I didn't see an age limit noted. From my perspective, my children are my children whether they are 4 or 40. Maybe you feel different about your children...

Now you know what these verses are about, not little children from 4-16. It's about the adult children, I'm trying to find the post where I explained this in some detail.

[ronedee]

Are you implying that there would be some kind of mass panic if god was proven non-existent?

I dunno? What's your take on that?

[wwjs]

But, all GOOD was based on what was instituted by God! Or in certain cultures, some deity of higher morals than their own.

You can't claim morality as a humanly instituted trait! No matter how far you get from God...morality brings you right back at Him!

That's fucking bullshit and I'll prove to you why. Is slavery bad? Well, Bible says that's it's not. Have a good day

[ronedee]

First off I would say that 'science' doesn't care one iota about a god or gods. No scientist I've ever spoken to (and I'm engaged to one) even thinks about god through their research.

I would also, in addition, say that the abolition of religion is not (my) goal, rather the abolition of people using their religion as a hammer to force others into thinking as they do as their sole raison d'être.

Anyway, to the premise of the initialy question (effectively; what morals [if any] will dominate society]), I would say, whatever morality has evolved socially at the point in time that the hypothetical was engaged.

As it has done throughout all of history. There has never been an objective morality that exists in history. The morality of a Christian community in a south Scottish border town 1,300 years ago would be wildly different to what it is today. Indeed, morality across the globe can be pinpointed to be vastly different dependent on the community one sought to engage with.

You may be interested (although also may not be) that states with the most entrenched secularism in Europe also tend to be the most peaceful and have the more liberally informed laws when it comes to justice and rehabilitation (for example), notably states such as Norway and Sweden. That's not to say that secularism and religion are mutually exclusive; indeed, Christianity's greatest invention in history was secularism in 1648.

However, I must insist that the idea that we claim 'there is no god' is off the mark. It's simply not true. We cannot know for sure, but until there's evidence to back up an existence of a deity, we can easily and rightly dismiss such claims as 'absurd and false until proven otherwise'.

When Christian hegemonies ran the state system in Western Europe (from the people pre-17th century) the life expectancy for your average poor parishioner was pretty dire, excluding the numerous conflicts that they were expected (forced) to fight in on behalf of the sovereign (often either endorsed through the papacy or in opposition to it). After Westphalia we had the enlightenment, and the beginnings of the liberation of the common people and eventually their supremacy over the sovereign through democratic liberalism (in all its forms).

Democratic liberalism is the result of the abolition of the church's involvement in state affairs and the adoption of cuius regio, eius religio. If we're going to talk about morality in the state without religion, we should look at the way in which the people took control of their own religion from the central papacy and adopted their own rules based on their own state contexts. It hasn't worked out too bad, IMHO.

Thanks for your reply! I always learn something from you!

I guess my question should be: Where do morals come from?

I mean what really stopped us 5,000 years ago from smashing someones head in for a berry? Did we wake up one day and say, "I love my fellow barbarian"?

Now on an individual level, your argument may be correct (more in a minute)....

But, there musta been a "wide spread" conversion of those animal instincts long ago. I don't believe there was a higher learning institute in those days.
And to say that it just happened naturally, that people most everywhere on the globe wanted a deity in their life is ...well... a stretch! Superstition is enough for believing in a God....but for the masses to start believing in morality?

And sure.... why wouldn't an educated, intelligent, thinking secular society be moral? These types of individuals are drawn to atheism and their own godless, peaceful lifestyle. But, the masses aren't so "smart". The masses are looking to be directed. The masses are in need.

You are probably getting my point about now.

And you are definitely correct that religion as "a weapon" needs to be removed from the hands that will do harm. But this is where religion gets the bad rap! and even though the "good" far out-weighs the "bad"....the religious community far out-weigh anyone!

So atheism attracts a "certain", small, defined group of individuals. Religion attracts EVERYONE! And there my friend is my dilemma as a religious person.

No matter how good I, or the 10's of millions of Christians could be...the "bad ones" are still more than the biggest secular society there will ever be!

---

But, all GOOD was based on what was instituted by God! Or in certain cultures, some deity of higher morals than their own.

You can't claim morality as a humanly instituted trait! No matter how far you get from God...morality brings you right back at Him!

That's fucking bullshit and I'll prove to you why. Is slavery bad? Well, Bible says that's it's not. Have a good day

Another atheist that believes in the Bible!! Can I get a Hooooraaaay!!

[FallentoReason]

For someone who has no faith in God...you have plenty for your fellow man.

No faith required. You're going about this as if society has collapsed because it doesn't have religion. Wait, no it hasn't... my government is still in place and people are still being punished for their crimes.

And I don't know how you can pick all this crap out of my question...but you must know something about me that I don't know!

Take a look at how you're coming across:

"Where as a society will the moral compass come from? Considering of course you even want a moral society?"

It's hard to believe you're being genuine about these questions. If you honestly believe life outside of religion is amoral and anti-humanist, then I'll be scared for my life the day (if ever) you deconvert. You will live out your delusion in believing that morals don't exist, therefore you will be the rapist and murderer you think everyone is in society. The only thing stopping you is a 2000+ year old book. The thing stopping society is common sense which you clearly don't have if you're being genuine about these questions.

"Will it be: Laws? hmmmm...who will instill these laws? Teachers? Police? Parents? Military? Government Agencies?"

Have you been living under a rock?? Of course it's god-damn laws! Does your country not have these things??? Does your country not have police??? Again, your delusion that society is amoral and without authority is shocking, and the day (if ever) that you deconvert, quite clearly you will fail to recognise both of these things and no thought will stop you from becoming the mythical rapist and murderer everyone is in society that you fantasise about.

"Or will it be just every "being" for themselves, and NO LAWS? Total FREEDOM! WOW!! Freedom to do ANYTHING!! And no one to tell you differently!"

Yeah, because if I want to buy a new tv, I just hold up my nearest JB-HIFI and snatch myself a tv set. Because if I'm financially suffering I just beat the nearest citizen to me to death and steal his money. Because if I'm hungry, I just go to my grocery store and eat right out of the shelves. Because if I feel horny, I just grab the nearest girl and I please myself. Seriously... are you actually being genuine with any of these questions?? Because if you are, then clearly the only amoral person here is you; you fail to use common sense in order to discern black from white, right from wrong. I can only assume that your "moral" life is some weird grey tone as a consequence of you following the commands of a book -- no second thought needed. Not surprisingly, such a take over of your rational thinking has lead you to paint this fantasy picture of a mythical society where everything is bent on destruction because we aren't slaves of a 2000+ year old tradition. Just look around you. Society is functioning just fine through the joint effort of being rational.

[ronedee]

We've heard it already.

We've debunked it many times already.

Here you go: Link

Enjoy

(Wow, that does make it easy)

"debunked"? You think pretty highly of yourself. Well, you failed in this attempt (see below) ....and miserably I might add.

I especially liked the phonically challenged:

"How'd I do? Better than "duh, cus big invisible sky daddy sez not to."?

http://atheistforums.org/thread-14553-po...#pid330003