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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 5:07 am
Atheists and Christians lead the same moral lives.
Most atheists have been Christians before and still live like Christians (as far as moral code goes). Not to mention that the morals of Christianity are the societal norm.
My opinion is that theism traces all of our morals back to God, while (debatably) in atheism, these morals cannot be traced back.
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 5:11 am
(June 20, 2013 at 5:07 am)Consilius Wrote: Most atheists have been Christians before and still live like Christians (as far as moral code goes). I'm proud to say I've never been Christian, I've never even been baptized.
Quote:Not to mention that the morals of Christianity are the societal norm.
You could just as easily argue the other way around, that Christian morals are a reflection of the societal moral norms that predate it. Chicken or egg?
Quote:My opinion is that theism traces all of our morals back to God, while (debatably) in atheism, these morals cannot be traced back.
Yes they can be traced back to something objective, i.e. to an object of reason. Morals can be based on the avoidance of suffering for all sentient beings.
"Men see clearly enough the barbarity of all ages — except their own!" — Ernest Crosby.
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 5:47 am
(June 20, 2013 at 5:07 am)Consilius Wrote: Atheists and Christians lead the same moral lives.
Thank you, some theists don't even get that far.
Quote:Most atheists have been Christians before and still live like Christians (as far as moral code goes).
Like Littleendian, I've never lived like a christian. I've been in a church literally once in my life. 
Quote:Not to mention that the morals of Christianity are the societal norm.
Not really; we don't live in a theocracy run by christianity (not literally, anyway) meaning we're breaking the first commandment right off the bat. Nor do we murder those of different religions... truth is, though we share some highly practical and obvious moral principles with christianity, there are many more that we don't, and moreover those moral principles we "get" from christianity pop up in moral codes that predate christianity too, the code of Hammurabi being the most popular example. Oh, and non-christian societies also share these codes too, generally.
What's more likely is that christianity co-opts the good bits from other moral systems, just like all other religions and moral codes, and that all of this traces back to a somewhat objective moral sense that we as a species have developed over time, simply based on the physical reality in which we live, and the empathic process instilled in us via evolution.
Quote:My opinion is that theism traces all of our morals back to God, while (debatably) in atheism, these morals cannot be traced back.
It's amazing how many of my google hits feature evolution since I started posting here.
Actually, we can trace back morality to beyond theism.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 6:19 am
Yes, it is true that many Christian morals are also evolutionarily beneficial, which is a reason that they are compatible with society, but I think there are holes in the atheist origin of morality. An example would be dying for an individual that is incapable of reproducing—a childless spouse or a senior citizen.
For instance, why shouldn't you spread lies about a classmate? She still gets to survive and reproduce. Say you know that there is no possibility of you ever needing her help in the near future.
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 6:39 am
(June 20, 2013 at 6:19 am)Consilius Wrote: Yes, it is true that many Christian morals are also evolutionarily beneficial, which is a reason that they are compatible with society, but I think there are holes in the atheist origin of morality. An example would be dying for an individual that is incapable of reproducing—a childless spouse or a senior citizen.
For instance, why shouldn't you spread lies about a classmate? She still gets to survive and reproduce. Say you know that there is no possibility of you ever needing her help in the near future.
I think you're making two major mistakes here; one is that you're pinning a definition of evolution as survival of the fittest, which isn't quite right. Natural selection- the selection mechanism for the evolutionary process- doesn't just select for advantageous traits, it actually selects against negative ones; so long as a trait doesn't provide sufficient negative effect to be fatally detrimental, it will persist. There are plenty of physical evidences for this in the human body, but it also extends to the heuristics that we as people employ in our day to day lives; even if I were to accept your examples as true, the case would be that these are evolutionary holdovers that don't hurt us enough to be selected against. This is certainly true of many elements of, say, our pattern recognition abilities, and our inbuilt deference to authority.
The second mistake you've made is confusing the scope of this; humans evolved as a social species, our survival- back when it wasn't assured as it is in most first world countries today- was contingent on us being a part of a group that would co-operate to survive, and employ our strength in numbers, in addition to our fabulous brains, to thrive. Evolution is awfully general in the main, it can't instill specific enough heuristics to deal with the examples you've listed, and even if it could those things would run against the benefit we'd gain from our sense of empathy. The advantageous trait is "don't hurt each other" not "don't hurt each other, except when it's beneficial to you." That level of selfishness runs directly contrary to the advantageous spirit of the trait.
Oh, I guess there's three mistakes; you also seem to be thinking that evolution- in it's incorrect "survival of the fittest" form- is the morality we're ascribed. It's not; evolution is the method by which those morals have arisen in us.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 6:45 am
Godschild Wrote:What I do find strange is you do not care about a future perfect life, that you are satisfied with this one only.
I cannot care about a future life, because I do not think it's possible that one exists.
Why do you find it strange that I am satisfied with only this life?
(June 20, 2013 at 3:27 am)max-greece Wrote: Note - I am not suggesting you leave - just curious as to why you are here.
Fr0d0 knows that atheists are a hell of a lot more fun and interesting to talk to than other Christians.
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 2:27 pm
(June 19, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Ryantology Wrote: You cannot value truth if you confuse it with fiction as often as you do.
No, it’s actually you who does that, I do value truth, and I have a moral obligation to do so.
“18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.”- Romans 1:18-23 (ESV)
Quote: Truth has nothing to do with it, either. You're supposed to believe in God because God says so. Whether or not it is true is obviously not relevant.
No, Christians have a moral obligation to value truth, so even if that belief leads to suffering and hardship we must still believe it. (3 John 1, 2 Thessalonians 2)
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 2:31 pm
It is interesting how theists have different meanings for words that are completely off the mark from what is in the dictionary.
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 2:34 pm
(June 20, 2013 at 2:31 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: It is interesting how theists have different meanings for words that are completely off the mark from what is in the dictionary.
They have a name for that...
"Apologetics"
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RE: Why is belief in a higher power required?
June 20, 2013 at 2:38 pm
(June 20, 2013 at 2:31 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: It is interesting how theists have different meanings for words that are completely off the mark from what is in the dictionary.
Such as?
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