What is "FAITH"

[Godscreated]

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How often do you read and study the Bible, from what I can tell little because you made a real good demonstration in our last argument of only a few verses. You could not connect what was said with what was done. I have not meet anyone here that can do much better, the Bible connects from the beginning to the end and no one but the Christians here have shown they know the connection.

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Here's the thing about arguing with you that drives me- and I suspect everyone else here- goddamn insane; you're so completely sure that your version of what the bible says is true, despite providing us no reason to think that. You're just utterly, brashly absorbed in your belief that whatever you think about the bible is a self evident truth, but outside of your own head, outside of godschild-world, it's not.

I love it, you are beside yourself because I'm confident in what I believe, that I do not change what I believe just to suit you, well I'm sorry you can't handle the confidence I have in what I believe. I rely on God's discernment, I actually could not care what you think about me, you think your opinion about me is what counts, wrong, the only One who counts is God. You need to get over yourself and come to reality before that prideful brain of yours fries itself in self conceit.

When you say "read and study," what you really mean is "agree with me without question." Because let me assure you, others here that have read and studied the bible have come to conclusions counter to yours. There are thousands of christian denominations that you're simply not a part of, what makes your interpretation the prime one over theirs? You never tell us; you're quite happy to tell us all what you believe, but like most christians you fall down when it comes to the why, beyond the traditional "god has revealed it to me!" non-answer.

Now you're being stupid, when I say read and study that's exactly what I mean, you're the one who keeps pushing me to see evolution through your eyes. I'm asking that you see what scripture says through a complete study of it, I know you want do it, you're afraid of it, what you should be afraid of is your ignorance of the Bible. I do not argue with other Christians about what they believe unless they are using scripture in a very wrong way. I concern myself with what God teaches me and I share it here. I keep hearing you say that there are thousands of different interpretations of scripture, why don't you list a couple hundred and will go over them, that should not be so hard seeing that you know there are thousands of different interpretations of the scriptures. I mean if you know there are thousands you should be able to remember a couple hundred, right.

But you don't want to have that discussion. I can see why: you're a christian, so you're used to having things dictated to you, but that's not good enough here. So you just bullheadedly throw down whatever dictates you like, and if someone dares to disagree, you pull out your standard answer, "I know better than you!" without any apparent need to say why or even how that is.

Just because you know Christians that only learn by listening to a preacher doesn't mean I nor others do not study scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Unlike you I do not bring in others work and ask you to go read it, I give you what I know, from my self, not what someone else wrote. Yep, I'm saying you're to lazy to do it on your own.

I feel I can make this statement because no unbeliever has proven different.

You've always felt that you can make unqualified statements by fiat. This isn't a surprise. I kind of add in a little "unevidenced assertion!" tag to most of your posts in my mind, nowadays.

You have never proven my statements from scripture are not true, you can't, you know nothing about the scriptures. You and the rest go and pick out a few verses that you dislike and try to discredit scripture, what about the rest, you know those things you've never ever read and studied.
Fine ignore God's word presented to you, you'll be reminded of it soon.

[Esquilax]

I love it, you are beside yourself because I'm confident in what I believe, that I do not change what I believe just to suit you, well I'm sorry you can't handle the confidence I have in what I believe. I rely on God's discernment, I actually could not care what you think about me, you think your opinion about me is what counts, wrong, the only One who counts is God. You need to get over yourself and come to reality before that prideful brain of yours fries itself in self conceit.

It's not confidence, it's arrogance: since you've done absolutely nothing to prove to anybody besides yourself that what you believe is actually true, and since you can't demonstrate the truth of your god at all, being as confident as you are- in disagreement with all of the available evidence, I might add- is just evidence of an ill deserved ego. Not learning new things is nothing to be proud of, GC; it just makes you a bit of a dick.

Now you're being stupid, when I say read and study that's exactly what I mean, you're the one who keeps pushing me to see evolution through your eyes. I'm asking that you see what scripture says through a complete study of it, I know you want do it, you're afraid of it, what you should be afraid of is your ignorance of the Bible. I do not argue with other Christians about what they believe unless they are using scripture in a very wrong way. I concern myself with what God teaches me and I share it here.

This part is just... complete idiocy. I mean, jesus, dude. Are you even thinking anymore?

I keep hearing you say that there are thousands of different interpretations of scripture, why don't you list a couple hundred and will go over them, that should not be so hard seeing that you know there are thousands of different interpretations of the scriptures. I mean if you know there are thousands you should be able to remember a couple hundred, right.

It's just an objective fact, dude. There's a multitude of different christian denominations. Ahem.

And all of them believe they've got god's own truth, just the same as you. How can we tell them apart? Especially when, when questioned for proof, all you do is spout the same old reassurances as to the superiority of your view, and nothing resembling evidence.

Just because you know Christians that only learn by listening to a preacher doesn't mean I nor others do not study scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Unlike you I do not bring in others work and ask you to go read it, I give you what I know, from my self, not what someone else wrote. Yep, I'm saying you're to lazy to do it on your own.

Prove to us that your interpretation is the correct one.

You have never proven my statements from scripture are not true, you can't, you know nothing about the scriptures.

Not much for the burden of proof, are you, champ?

You and the rest go and pick out a few verses that you dislike and try to discredit scripture, what about the rest, you know those things you've never ever read and studied.

And you do the same thing, just in the reverse; you pick the verses you like, and ignore the ones you don't. The difference is, only one of us is declaring they've got some divine basis for this...

And yet no evidence.

Fine ignore God's word presented to you, you'll be reminded of it soon.

And we end on a threat. Just perfect for showing the strength of your position. hock:

[Bad Writer]

So we owe our morality to a prehistoric group of people? Where did they get their ideas from?

They got their ideas from what they agreed upon to be moral. We do the same thing today.

Stoning naughty children? That Bible passage isn't as familiar to me as you think it is.

I'm...sorry? If you don't want to know what it says in the Bible, it's no skin off my back. Actually, I'm of the mind to say that it's best just to skip that whole Bible thing anyway, especially since it's nothing but trouble.

Capital punishment is not the same with the crime that is murder. Killing the innocent is something we agree is morally wrong.

I shouldn't even have to remind you that there are different degrees of murder. That's not the point though. Killing is still killing, whether it's labeled as a crime or not. Your own Bible tells you not to kill, and yet, in the same book, there are many passages dedicated to telling you HOW to kill. Face it: murder is moral when we agree that it's moral. Think about it: Japanese Samurai, CIA Assassins, U.S. Air Raids, public executions by guillotine, ethnic cleanings. All of these acts and more are sanctioned by individuals or groups that have no qualms with what is being carried out. They have agreed that it was moral. You can disagree all you want, but even you said "Killing the innocent is something we agree is morally wrong." Yes...we had to agree to that first!

Anglo-Saxon duels are mutual, aren't they?

Were they always?

We agree that honor-killings are wrong. Why?

We agree. Do the people doing the honor killings agree with you?

The point we are brushing upon is that morality is not a constant in this universe. You can only see morality in the context of what the Catholic Church tells you, and that makes sense to me. I don't fault you for that...your belief in God and his system of morals is why you condemn honor killings. I agree that they're bad, but I condemn them for a completely different reason than you do. That needs to be okay...it needs to be okay to understand that morals are different wherever you look.

Think of it this way: I don't think it's bad that your morals are what they are. I just think it's bad that you got them from the Bible. Same thing if you were a muslim. I could not fuss about what you think is moral and what isn't, but I would only take issue that the source of your morals was the Quran.

If morality is not fixed, than that means the morals preached by the Bible were dreamed up over a 2000-year period, endured for another 2000 years, but one day loving your neighbor will be the most despicable thing you can imagine.

It's a little extreme, but that's a valid scenario.

[Consilius]

What I was trying to say is that I don't think stoning naughty kids is in the Bible.
Let me also say this: the Bible is not the origin of human morality. It's what we already know to be true (for the most part) written down.

"33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith The Lord." Jermiah 31:33-34
What is truly right and truly wrong comes from beyond the Bible and within us. The Bible is merely a statement of these morals that serves as a check-and-balance to anyone who tries to oppose his moral compass and go against the laws. Just like the modern justice system.

What I am arguing is that our morals don't come from us, but from our world. We didn't invent morals; we discovered that they were there. We cannot make a world where betraying your friends is a good thing. We found out that lying is wrong and will forever be, so we stopped accepting it and created a society where you can be punished for it. Just like our vehicles are built for the non-negotiable laws of physics, so is human society built for non-negotiable rights and wrongs.

[Foxaèr]

Then you should understand that religion does not hold a monopoly on morality.

[Godscreated]

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I love it, you are beside yourself because I'm confident in what I believe, that I do not change what I believe just to suit you, well I'm sorry you can't handle the confidence I have in what I believe. I rely on God's discernment, I actually could not care what you think about me, you think your opinion about me is what counts, wrong, the only One who counts is God. You need to get over yourself and come to reality before that prideful brain of yours fries itself in self conceit.

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It's not confidence, it's arrogance: since you've done absolutely nothing to prove to anybody besides yourself that what you believe is actually true, and since you can't demonstrate the truth of your god at all, being as confident as you are- in disagreement with all of the available evidence, I might add- is just evidence of an ill deserved ego. Not learning new things is nothing to be proud of, GC; it just makes you a bit of a dick.

Your strong point in life will be name calling, to be honest there's not much money in it. Name callers have a lack of self confidence, I can understand why you state to all Christians we are arrogant, shame you've never experienced confidence in yourself.

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Now you're being stupid, when I say read and study that's exactly what I mean, you're the one who keeps pushing me to see evolution through your eyes. I'm asking that you see what scripture says through a complete study of it, I know you want do it, you're afraid of it, what you should be afraid of is your ignorance of the Bible. I do not argue with other Christians about what they believe unless they are using scripture in a very wrong way. I concern myself with what God teaches me and I share it here.

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This part is just... complete idiocy. I mean, jesus, dude. Are you even thinking anymore?

The only problem here is your ability to comprehend.

I keep hearing you say that there are thousands of different interpretations of scripture, why don't you list a couple hundred and will go over them, that should not be so hard seeing that you know there are thousands of different interpretations of the scriptures. I mean if you know there are thousands you should be able to remember a couple hundred, right.

It's just an objective fact, dude. There's a multitude of different christian denominations. Ahem.

And all of them believe they've got god's own truth, just the same as you. How can we tell them apart? Especially when, when questioned for proof, all you do is spout the same old reassurances as to the superiority of your view, and nothing resembling evidence.

Man you're one mixed up dude, one minute it's you Christians have to many opinions, how are we to know who's right, the next minute it's you all sound the same how are we to tell you apart. You sir have some serious problems.
Are you afraid to answer my question? I did not put it behind hide tags so you can easily reread it, I even put it in bold so you can't miss it.

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Just because you know Christians that only learn by listening to a preacher doesn't mean I nor others do not study scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Unlike you I do not bring in others work and ask you to go read it, I give you what I know, from my self, not what someone else wrote. Yep, I'm saying you're to lazy to do it on your own.

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Prove to us that your interpretation is the correct one.

Exactly what verses are you speaking of, there are those I have stated are my belief and not that of others and I may not be correct on those, now that we have eliminated those, which verses.

You have never proven my statements from scripture are not true, you can't, you know nothing about the scriptures.

Not much for the burden of proof, are you, champ?

Doesn't take much for a chimp, now does it.

You and the rest go and pick out a few verses that you dislike and try to discredit scripture, what about the rest, you know those things you've never ever read and studied.

And you do the same thing, just in the reverse; you pick the verses you like, and ignore the ones you don't. The difference is, only one of us is declaring they've got some divine basis for this...

And yet no evidence.

The only verses I ever argue here are the ones others bring up, that line is one of your standard lines got anything of any relevance. Yes I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in the scriptures, if I didn't I would be as ignorant about them as you are.

Fine ignore God's word presented to you, you'll be reminded of it soon.

And we end on a threat. Just perfect for showing the strength of your position. hock:

How is that a threat, you've stated you would rather be in hell than spend an eternity with God, a threat presupposes fear, don't tell me your getting scare of hell at this point in your life, if so I'll stop saying those things to you and say, now maybe you will see the light.

[Consilius]

Then you should understand that religion does not hold a monopoly on morality.

As in, you don't need to be Christian to be good? Sure.
I think we can all agree with that.

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And Godschild, I'm like your passion an all, but you sound a little condescending. We all have a pretty good idea of what our world is and how to live in it.

[Esquilax]

Your strong point in life will be name calling, to be honest there's not much money in it.

Perhaps you skipped over the several lines of text before I called you a dick?

Name callers have a lack of self confidence, I can understand why you state to all Christians we are arrogant, shame you've never experienced confidence in yourself.

Did I say all christians were arrogant? No, I said you are arrogant; most christians are entirely capable of modulating their beliefs in accordance with the facts. Only a select few of them have the astounding ego to demand that their opinions be taken as divine truth.

The only problem here is your ability to comprehend.

Or, your ability to express a thought that actually correlates with exterior reality.

Man you're one mixed up dude, one minute it's you Christians have to many opinions, how are we to know who's right, the next minute it's you all sound the same how are we to tell you apart. You sir have some serious problems.

And where, exactly, did I say you all sound the same? My entire point is that there are so many branches of your religion, all slightly different, most holding at least a few propositions that contradict the edicts of the others, and yet all claiming that they are exactly the right one. The sole uniform aspect of all you christians is that you all claim you're exactly right on every point, by fiat.

So, how do we tell which is the right one?

Are you afraid to answer my question? I did not put it behind hide tags so you can easily reread it, I even put it in bold so you can't miss it.

I linked to a whole list of christian denominations. Did you not bother clicking on my link again? I put it there because it was easier than physically writing an answer to your (dishonest, logically inconsistent and thoroughly unreasonable) request.

Exactly what verses are you speaking of, there are those I have stated are my belief and not that of others and I may not be correct on those, now that we have eliminated those, which verses.

Your interpretation of christianity dude. Because there are others, convinced that they are true christians, that disagree with you, possibly on multiple points. It can't have escaped your notice; even individual churches tend to disagree on at least a few points of their divine mandates. That's why you've got homophobic congregations, racist ones, and by contrast entirely accepting ones. You've got evolution-accepting churches and creationist ones. Etc etc.

How can you tell that you've got it right and they've got it wrong?

The only verses I ever argue here are the ones others bring up, that line is one of your standard lines got anything of any relevance. Yes I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in the scriptures, if I didn't I would be as ignorant about them as you are.

How do you know you're being guided by the holy spirit? How can you demonstrate this to anyone else?

How do you know?

How is that a threat, you've stated you would rather be in hell than spend an eternity with God, a threat presupposes fear, don't tell me your getting scare of hell at this point in your life, if so I'll stop saying those things to you and say, now maybe you will see the light.

No, a successful threat presupposes fear. A threat can be made and still leave the threatened unmoved. And yet here you stand, leering and telling me you think- possibly hope- that bad things are going to happen to me. You are expressing a violent hope for my future, and I don't have to believe it'll happen to be irritated by it.

[Godscreated]

Man you're one mixed up dude, one minute it's you Christians have to many opinions, how are we to know who's right, the next minute it's you all sound the same how are we to tell you apart. You sir have some serious problems.

So, how do we tell which is the right one?

None are completely correct and if any say they are they have deceived themselves. I've never made that claim, you've made it about me, but I've actually have said I know I'm not right about everything.

Are you afraid to answer my question? I did not put it behind hide tags so you can easily reread it, I even put it in bold so you can't miss it.

I linked to a whole list of christian denominations. Did you not bother clicking on my link again? I put it there because it was easier than physically writing an answer to your (dishonest, logically inconsistent and thoroughly unreasonable) request.

How do you know the doctrinal differences you looked up are actually correct, have you read the doctrinal constitutions of those denomination, or are you relying on others to tell you what they are. Those persons could being deceptive and you would have no idea. You are making claims to which you have not done your home work. Why did you say I was unreasonable, it was you who said you knew of thousands of differences between denominations. I took your word for it and figured you could bring up a few, but it's apparent you do not know the differences. You were making such a deal over denominational differences I thought you might like to go over some, but since you do not forget it.

Exactly what verses are you speaking of, there are those I have stated are my belief and not that of others and I may not be correct on those, now that we have eliminated those, which verses.

Your interpretation of christianity dude. Because there are others, convinced that they are true christians, that disagree with you, possibly on multiple points. It can't have escaped your notice; even individual churches tend to disagree on at least a few points of their divine mandates. That's why you've got homophobic congregations, racist ones, and by contrast entirely accepting ones. You've got evolution-accepting churches and creationist ones. Etc etc.

How can you tell that you've got it right and they've got it wrong?

I go through the scriptures if I'm going to challenge a denominational difference, which I rarely do anymore, most are not important enough to fret over. If I do challenge I will find a verse that makes such a positive statement for or against and go from there to understand those verses that are less clear on that subject. But like I say as long as the denomination goes by scripture on salvation I pretty much do not worry about the rest. I differ greatly on hell and lost salvation as far as the Southern Baptist are concerned, am I correct or are they, maybe.

The only verses I ever argue here are the ones others bring up, that line is one of your standard lines got anything of any relevance. Yes I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in the scriptures, if I didn't I would be as ignorant about them as you are.

How do you know you're being guided by the holy spirit? How can you demonstrate this to anyone else?

How do you know?

God will reveal in a very clear manner generally through His word what I've asked for, not always though. Sometimes it takes many weeks of study to see the answers, sometimes I get an immediate answer. Like last night I was comparing recorded ancient Assyrian history, to Biblical verses and stories to see how things would match up. I never read or study scripture without asking for God's guidance and revelation. I know when my questions about scripture are answered when many scriptures line up and show truth. Really it's hard to explain how I know when things are revealed as truth, I guess you would need to be in my shoes.

How is that a threat, you've stated you would rather be in hell than spend an eternity with God, a threat presupposes fear, don't tell me your getting scare of hell at this point in your life, if so I'll stop saying those things to you and say, now maybe you will see the light.

No, a successful threat presupposes fear. A threat can be made and still leave the threatened unmoved. And yet here you stand, leering and telling me you think- possibly hope- that bad things are going to happen to me. You are expressing a violent hope for my future, and I don't have to believe it'll happen to be irritated by it.

I've had the same manner of things done to me yet you guys see no problem with that.
I would never want anyone to suffer hell, if I did not care I would not try and show people God's truth, but when you or anyone else belittles me I'm going to get your attention, so when you irritate me expect at some time to hear from me, it's not always the Christian response, but then I'm human too.

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And Godschild, I'm like your passion an all, but you sound a little condescending. We all have a pretty good idea of what our world is and how to live in it.

Please explain in more detail.

[Consilius]

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How often do you read and study the Bible, from what I can tell little because you made a real good demonstration in our last argument of only a few verses.

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I rely on God's discernment, I actually could not care what you think about me, you think your opinion about me is what counts, wrong, the only One who counts is God. You need to get over yourself and come to reality before that prideful brain of yours fries itself in self conceit.

Now you're being stupid, when I say read and study that's exactly what I mean, you're the one who keeps pushing me to see evolution through your eyes. I'm asking that you see what scripture says through a complete study of it, I know you want do it, you're afraid of it, what you should be afraid of is your ignorance of the Bible…I concern myself with what God teaches me and I share it here.

Just because you know Christians that only learn by listening to a preacher doesn't mean I nor others do not study scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You have never proven my statements from scripture are not true, you can't, you know nothing about the scriptures…Fine ignore God's word presented to you, you'll be reminded of it soon.

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THAT'S the problem. We're both Christians here, but we are talking to atheists. The more you buddy up with God, the more you fit into the Christian stereotype of not wanting to give evidence, which I'm sure you have of whatever claim you are making. The companionship you describe with God you probably feel very much, but there's no need to bring it into this argument.
Your language is appropriate for some very religious Christians, but not atheists and probably not even me. Just don't drag it into debate.